recording High bitrate in Movi App like Filmic Pro app

Discussion in 'Movi Technical' started by Azzie Scott, Jul 1, 2018.

  1. Azzie Scott

    Azzie Scott Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi, I have yet to purchase a Movi and wanted to know if the Movi app allows you to record at a high bitrate just like the Filmic Pro App? By far Filmic Pro app allows the greatest quality of recorded video over the standard apple quality.

    I understand that using the movi app opens up greater capabilities but if the record quality is low like the iPhone I rather use the Filmic Pro App.
     
  2. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    81
    Freefly is close to releasing an API that would make it possible for Filmic Pro to apply its options to the Movi in the same way that it does to the Osmo.

    The Movi app is itself under active development and there have been discussions in this forum about what the Movi app bitrate should be. You might find it helpful to do a search.

    That said, there is an interesting question about whether certain Filmic Pro features amount to smoke and mirrors. For example, watch this newsshooter video on Filmic Pro Log:

     
  3. Azzie Scott

    Azzie Scott Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi Rorick, I have tested the iPhone native 4k quality and the Filmic Pro maximum bit rate quality side by side. And by far the the Filmic Pro app at maximum bitrate is much cleaner than iPhone native.
     
  4. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    81
    Sorry, I thought that I already answered your question. The Movi app currently supports native iPhone bitrate. There is an imminent API and the Movi app is itself under development on this and a good number of other issues.

    Pity that you didn’t bother to take the time to watch that newsshooter video, because it raises big questions about the claims of people who swear that “side by side” comparisons of Filmic Pro Log vs non-Log profiles show the clear superiority of the former.

    Filmic Pro also claims to neutralise iPhone stabilisation, which is clearly rubbish.

    The truth is, there is a gap between what Filmic Pro claims and what it delivers.
     
    #4 Rorick Edge, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
    Rob Warren likes this.
  5. Azzie Scott

    Azzie Scott Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi Rorick, yes I did check out the video. And it is very interesting. I don't dispute wether the Log profile adds or takes away from the image quality, im sure it will vary based on different circumstances. Im just talking about image quality as a side by side comparison. If the movi app only utilizes the iPhone native bitrate the image quality will be subpar, I have personal tested it, the Filmic Pro extreme bit rate setting produces a way cleaner image. It would be nice if the Movi App itself could offer the recording bitrate of 100 mb per sec like Filmic Pro. But if not, as you mentioned I hope they allow Filmic Pro to take advantage of all the awesome features available using the Movi
     
  6. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    81
    Azzie, if you want to know where Freefly is going with the app, it’s discussed at a number of points in this video from a few days ago:

     
  7. Azzie Scott

    Azzie Scott Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ok Awesome. Thank you.
     
  8. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    81
    There is also a current thread in which later posts reference specific time stamps in that video that discuss where the app is going: https://forum.freeflysystems.com/index.php?threads/movi-api.12447/

    By the way, that video also contains Freefly’s views (don’t know the timestamp) on claims by Filmic Pro and others re neutralising mobile phone stabilisation. At least Freefly, having apparently spent a good deal of time testing on this issue, is honest.
     
    #8 Rorick Edge, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  9. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    81
    As someone who uses both Filmic Pro and the Movi app, my hope is that Freefly takes a professional view of its app’s features.

    In my view, Filmic Pro is at this point including “features” that complicate the app and are functionally worthless.

    That said, I do accept that bitrate is a legitimate issue.
     
  10. John Chu

    John Chu Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    47
    I actually asked about higher bit rates in this thread too v1.2 Beta

    And it really did challenge my beliefs about more being better, (extreme bit-rates, point of diminishing returns) I think the files coming out of the Movi app look great to me. Yes, make different options available, but the current app is pretty darn good.
     
  11. Rick Bronks

    Rick Bronks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    69
    I had a long chat with a developer of another pro camera app and they are keen to work with hardware manufacturers like FreeFly to incorporate their /sapps etc into other softwares. I mentioned it on another post and I hope the people are talking to each other because there's a lot of potential here.

    In the conversation I had, I discovered a lot of what Filmic does is mainly cosmetic. All the info in this post is from this conversation with the lead dev of this camera app.

    The colour profiles are mainly to cut down on time in edit. There's countless discussion online about 'flat' profiles etc in other cameras. Truth is you cannot squeeze something out of a sensor if the information just isn't there to start with.

    What Filmic does - and other cameras seem to copy this idea too - is take all the contrast, colours and sharpness out of the image and then it's 'flat' - but to get it looking useable we add it all back in. All that's happening is you're taking stuff away, then putting it back, but losing information along the way.

    The ONLY thing that actually has an effect is the increased bitrate. The iPhone bitrate is set by apple to be a trade off between quality and size. This doesn't mean we can't up the bitrate though.

    However - the iPhones top out at about 100 mb/s and it's a variable bit rate - so it might be lower but rarely higher. Apps may claim to record more than this - but the data rate will rarely be sustained at 100 let along higher. Apparently a developer can set it at 150 - 200 but it's not going to record at that.

    The issue is the iPhone data pipeline. It's still only recording it as a mp4 file - so whatever processing the app does the video format will always be mp4 and will always be processed - it's just apps like filmic just offer a few 'layers' on top of this.

    Essentially it's just putting 'filters' on the top of your footage - and if you are going to edit in a suit anyway - then all these profiles it has are pointless. They don't give you any more DR or latitude than the default colour of the iPhone will give - and then you can always tweak it in edit afterwards. So, sure 'natural' might save some time in edit (or if you're not editing at all) but otherwise it's not doing anything more than a glorified filter.

    Apart from the bitrate - which IS a real thing and can help get more info from the camera on the phone - I dont see why the Movi stock app is too bad actually. If they increase bitrate then everything else in other apps is cosmetic.
     
    John Chu and Rorick Edge like this.
  12. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Good information, Rick. Thanks for posting it. The bottom line is, if I understand you correctly, forget filters, stay with the "raw" image and change to the desired profile in post, but higher bit rate is a good thing.

    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
  13. Rick Bronks

    Rick Bronks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    69
    Basically. Yes. Anything that changes the look of the phone output is basically nonsense. A higher bitrate is good- but tops out at a max of 100 mb/s.

    All you’re doing with apps that change the colour/profiles is taking the output in camera (mp4) re processing it within the Filmic app then saving it as the new image with filtration. There’s not ‘more’ colour info there than just letting the iPhone record its default processed image.

    The app was one I mentioned that FF should look at- Mavis- and their dev guy is extremely knowledgeable about how the iPhone image pipeline works.

    Essentially their aim is to provide the best tools for recording as better video as they can squeeze from the phone.

    I’d love my Movi app to do the same and with a few tweaks is might well be there.
     
    John Chu and Rorick Edge like this.
  14. Darrin Altman

    Darrin Altman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    41
    Great info Rick. The main reason I use Filmic or Mavis (have both) is I like to set the shutter speed and lock it in. It’s also nice to lock the WB and with Mavis I have even used an Expodisk to set a custom WB and then lock it. I also like saving the file in the app and not automatically transferring to my camera roll. Recently I have been recording audio separate from the Movi and the iPhone, which I like a lot. Filmic helps a great deal because the file is saved with the date and time. I have to check Mavis and see how the file is saved. So I guess what I’m saying is, besides the higher bit rate these two apps offer some other essential tools.
     
  15. Rick Bronks

    Rick Bronks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    69
    You’re more than welcome.
    My hope is that the developers of Mavis will talk to freefly. It might be a path of least resistance compared to Filmic and we can see some real great hardware and software integration.
     
  16. Deniz Ozgoren

    Deniz Ozgoren Support Mage
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2015
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    84
    Rick, thanks for all the answers.
    • At Freefly, we don't believe "more is better". In fact we spend more time thinking about what features we can simplify and cut, than what we can add.
    • Movi app currently has slightly higher bitrate settings than native iOS camera app. Adding bitrate options is relatively very easy, however we didn't want to expose this until we can prove that there is actually a difference in practice. As you mentioned, there might be a little room to increase the setting from where it is right now. I think we will be exposing an option relatively soon.
    • For the log profile, I am not yet sure if it is helpful at all in practice. Most people seem to have the impression that this is something like S-log profile where 10bit camera input is logged onto 8bits, where you actually gain information. However with iPhone camera, applying a lut should be same as applying a filter on post, meaning you don't actually gain any more data from sensor. LUT is currently not on our short term plan until we have proof that it significantly will improve image quality in practice.
    • I believe Mavis has interest in using Freefly API once we finalize our release.
    • Focus & exposure improvements is on our short term roadmap.
    • WB options is available in 1.2 beta at gomovi.com/beta
    • Filenames: Few people gave feedback on this and we will update app to output videos to camera roll with dates in the file name.
     
    Rorick Edge likes this.
  17. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    81
    I have a lot of confidence in Freefly making the right decisions on features. I have a lot less confidence in what FilMic Pro is doing, and I don’t believe that copying FilMic Pro is the way to go in the Movi app.
     
  18. Rick Bronks

    Rick Bronks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    69
     
  19. Darrin Altman

    Darrin Altman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    41
    • I wonder it setting exposure on the iPhone by following the norm of doubling the frame rate to set the shutter (24fps so 1/48 shutter speed) and adjusting ISO manually, which I do in Mavis and FilmicPro actually has an effect on the video. I always do this when I use Mavis/FilmicPro. With iPhone video, maybe just letting the app like Movi deciding the shutter and ISO is fine. I’d like to test this out and see if I’m adding in an unnecessary complexity when using my phone instead of a camera. I do like the simplicity approach.
     
  20. Rick Bronks

    Rick Bronks Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    69
    I expect this does have an effect- I can see a more 'cinematic' feel when I shoot 24fps and at 1/48 unless this again is the app trickery but I expect it does make a difference. I am also fairly convinced that forcing the iPhone to use a low ISO is better than allowing it to ramp up the ISO which results in more grain. I'd be interested to know what the best ISO is for video on the phone - guessing it will depend on the model but I expect it to be either ISO 200 or 400.
     

Share This Page