Dji Ronin?

Discussion in 'MōVI M10' started by Sam Fleishman, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    Not talking about balancing. No gimbal will automatically balance. I'm talking about tuning. It is seriously a few adjustments that will be fairly predictable, then just check for oscillations, and you're done. I think most here would agree that tuning the gimbal is a very small and simple step.
     
  2. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Austin: Tuning the MōVI's is certainly waaay easier than on most other gimbals, but where you have to tune the P, I, D values of a Proportional, Integral, Derivative controllers, it can take a lot longer as there's inter-relationships between the tilt P, I, and D with the other two axes' P, I, and D.

    So, it's not exactly a piece of cake to tune general purpose gimbal controllers where the controller vendor does not know the specifics of the motors, nor the physical characteristics of the gimbal or even what LiPo you're using -- but in all cases, I can say that gimbal tuning is made significantly easier by several things:

    1. A good mental model of what is required and what each parameters does.
    2. Practice and experience.
    3. Decent red wine or Guinness.
    4. Well timed, succinct, obscenities shouted at the controller.

    OK. OK. 3. and 4. are optional. :rolleyes:
    They probably have no effect on the tuning.
    But they make me feel better.

    Andy.
     
  3. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    Well Andy, if I ever find myself having to tune one of the cheapies, I'll be sure to stock some Guiness (plus whiskey and Bailey's to make it slide down a little smoother ;)).

    The simplicity of the MōVI's tuning makes me glad I have it. It's much more straight forward than some think it is, which is why to me, an automatic tuning feature might be nice, but in the long run a pretty small thing.
     
  4. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Austin: If you stock the Guinness, whiskey and Bailey's, hey, *I* will come up to Redmond and tune it for you! :)

    Andy.
     
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  5. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    Well at that price I'm gonna make you balance it, too!
     
  6. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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  7. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    My main point is at 15k that should be a Movi feature not one found on a rig 1/3 the price. I have a cheapie alexmos 3 axis for my 5D. It rocks but have spent many hours getting it there. A one button calibration is the evolution of this design. Be it a Movi or the Ronin, DJI beat freefly to the punch. Simple question why is it better to tune 2 or 3 settings ala the Movi software vs a one button setup and go? Its like defending the floppy disk.

    I am a huge fan of the Movi I am directly responsible for 2 of them getting sold Talking them up while on set. I told a buddy everything he needed to make a red heavy lifter octo its flying a Movi because I told him to get one. They are much better then most but in this last year large company's have noticed this market jumping in making huge strides.

    Lets just say the Ronin is everything DJI is claiming it is. Where dose that put the Movi?
     
  8. jim mundell

    jim mundell Member

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    I thought I was the only one who did #4? Does work sometimes.
     
  9. jim mundell

    jim mundell Member

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    What does Freefly think about that one touch tuning? Might there be plans for that in the future for the Movi?
     
  10. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    I think you're missing my point here. It seems like a cool feature. Is it going to make me choose a Ronin over anything else, if I found myself in the market again? Not a chance. My point here is that if it takes 5 seconds, and my method takes 15 seconds, and I may have to do it only a couple of times a day, then it's not going to make any difference. The way people are talking about it, it's like they treat it as a game changer. Cool feature ≠ game changer.

    And no one will know what the Ronin is capable of until there's publicly available footage shot from the gimbal. Sure they had some footage at the booth, but none of that is available elsewhere, and footage from the manufacturer is not a very good way to judge how well it will actually perform. When users start uploading footage we might start to see a clearer picture.
     
  11. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Austin you are starting to sound like you are from Missouri whose state motto is "Show Me". :)

    The most widely known legend attributes the phrase to Missouri's U.S. Congressman Willard Duncan Vandiver, who served in the United States House of Representatives from 1897 to 1903. While a member of the U.S. House Committee on Naval Affairs, Vandiver attended an 1899 naval banquet in Philadelphia. In a speech there, he declared, "I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."
     
  12. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    If you notice, the only video available online is of the gimbal operating in a demo, but the demos never include actual video from the camera on the gimbal. That information is much more telling than anything else. I remember getting excited about the early MoVI video from the show floor that showed someone spinning the handles around, and the camera just stays stabilized. It looks cool, but a) you would never do that kind of move for a shot, obviously, and b) that video shows the concept of how it works, but not how well it actually does the job it's meant to.

    So far, all DJI has sold is an idea of a stabilizer. There is nothing wrong with that… every new product has to start there (unless it is announced and released simultaneously). Until we see what it can do, we are wasting our excitement. I don't think there's anything wrong with reserving judgement until that day.
     
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  13. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    I have zero issues with that. In my humble opinion it was only a matter of time before this was to happen. Its the weight capacity of the M15 plus an extra pound, the tool-less adjustment and one button calibration for the cost of the M5. Kinda a big deal if you ask me.

    Freefly tried to recoup its development costs right away hence the Movi at 15k. As a guy that has build a few gimbals myself. The Movi is 3-4k in raw parts at retail prices. The other 11-12k is the software?

    Where im going with this......... DJI jumping into this market if anything will force Freefly to rethink its prices, and or features. Call this, the sophomore year slump. As nice as the new Movi controller is I was expecting more from them. I was hoping some type of robotic slider control for time lapse or the ability to do motion control via GPS. (hit a waypoint and have the camera move to a pre selected position) 4th axis dampening at the handle bar for the slight up's and down's you get walking.

    If DJI pulled it off Freefly should be very worried. As much as I really like the Movi. I pre ordered a Ronin today. It came down to price. If this performs like a nice well working Zenmuse with no drift this is a game changer. I will be very happy in about a month or pissed. lol

    They are new into the handheld market. But not the brushless game they have put out 10-12 brushless gimbals to market already. Lets hope the Ronin is the fruits of that labor.

    Would love to but my 5D alexmos 3 axis handheld against a M5 not to win but to see how close I got. :
     
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  14. Wayne Mann

    Wayne Mann Member

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    If you do a search for the Ronin on Google you will come across a YouTube video that was shot at NAB. One of the DJI reps is introducing the Ronin. You do not need to see video from the camera on a Ronin to see what you need to see. In this video the rep is putting the Ronin through a light workout and the gimbal went into shake mode at one point when he held the gimbal by the handle bar grip with one hand letting the other grip dangle near the ground in what they called "suitcase" mode. All the while if you are watching the white Canon label on the camera you can see that the horizon is off a good bit. Then when the rep flips the camera around into the inverted or upside down position you can really see how far off the horizon is and it never comes back to level. Honestly they should have rehearsed that demo to make sure that the gimbal did what it was suppose to.

    To be fair this gimbal is still in prototype stage with final revisions maybe helping this situation or not. When DJI's gimbals "work" they are really good at stabilizing the camera. However they border on sucking when it comes to keeping the horizon level. On some of the other forums you can read for days on known problems with their other gimbals. I really like the construction on the Ronin. It is an extremely stiff chassis with that construction method. The way it stands right now I would take the gimbal and their motors and use my Alexmos controllers as they have been extremely reliable and they work great when tuned properly. BUT, they do not perform as well as the Movi.

    If it were me I would play the wait and see game and rent a Ronin once available to see if it meets your needs. For all practical intents and purposes DJI has NO support system. Any problems encountered will likely end in you sending your gimbal off to the main office in China or wherever it is, on you own dime. There are nightmares on the internet regarding that process as well.


    Wayne Mann
     
  15. Blake Simmons

    Blake Simmons New Member

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    Here is another example of the Ronin's horizon going way off and this was for Engadget! Lets hope we can see some footage shot from the gimbal soon!


    Cheers,
    Blake
     
  16. Brad McGiveron

    Brad McGiveron Active Member

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    This looks like it has had design and some thought to its development. Even if its almost as good as the 15K counterpart its going to be a winner on the price alone.

     
  17. Wayne Mann

    Wayne Mann Member

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    Hi Blake,

    That is the video I was referring to. Look at the Canon name on the camera at the 25 second mark. You can tell that the camera is leaned over (horizon) to the right by maybe 2.5 degrees. Hopefully they DJI will figure this out, but so far their GH3 and 5D gimbal have a lot of issues with the horizon not being level and worse.

    Brad I like the design and it is extremely rigid. However I would have rather seen a full cage around the camera like on the M5.


    Wayne Mann
     
  18. Eric Ulbrich

    Eric Ulbrich Member

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    I think being the first boys on the block isn't an easy challenge and freefly has done a tremendous job. Naturally everyone a going after them and trying to beat their rig. I do however think that being first may contribute to falling behind the pack in some ways. Freefly is a small company with many orders to fill. I can imagine this must be taxing, esp when it comes to balancing shipping orders and doing r and d. That being said I still think the m10 is a superior product.

    I think all this speculation is nothing more than that. Speculation. I would put the question to freefly. Why do you think your gimbal is superior and thus merits the 15k price point? What are you doing to help keep your gear ahead of the curve? I think he upgrade path and remote is certainty heading in the right direction. A thumb stick on the rig would be another major leap (as it seems like all the other rigs are going to make one.) the auto tune feature on the ronin seems like the autofocus setting on a camera. Those who want it will have it but for myself personally if much rather tune my gimbal based on my experience and knowledge of how to get the shot.
     
  19. Jason Herring

    Jason Herring Member

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    The hulk would, hahah,
     
  20. Justin Marx

    Justin Marx Active Member

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    I played with this thing at NAB and it was a fat beast..
    The battery stuck out so far in he back that I couldn't lock my arms.
    I stand my my statement if months ago:
    The MoVI is the Xerox of gimbals and has proven itself - you won't see any other gimbal on a major set for a long time..
     

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