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Dji Ronin?

Discussion in 'MōVI M10' started by Sam Fleishman, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. Arthur Vieira

    Arthur Vieira Flight Squad

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    My 2 cents :)

    This years NAB I got my hands on the Ronin with a 5D. It was incredibly heavy, I would risk saying almost double the weight of a M10 (wild gess). But what really surprised me was that it had the same problem as the Alexmoss have, if you shake it very hard it simply disarms :-( The guy from DJI at the booth said it was a prototype, OK... but this is really serious.
    Other thing, on the Zenmuses gimbals if you try to add a different lens or add anything to it that makes it too unbalanced it will burn the motors / controllers. I had a shot with a M5 some days ago where I was using a 5D with a Canon 100mm Macro and had to change on the flash for a Sigma 28-300mm (very heavy) lens. I simply changed the lens and left the unbalanced problem for the tilt motor of the M5. It worked perfectly for more than 10 min (more than enough to end the scene) and it disarmed for overheating. 1 minute later I had it balanced ok and turned the M5 back on and filmed for more than 1h. For me this is the most important of all. To have an equipment that can take the endurance of a dynamic filming set and not burn or disarm even if you balance it for hours.

    Cheers,
     
  2. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Arthur it may not have been overheating but simply not enough 'oomph' left in the batteries. I say this with tongue in cheek cause where you operate it is always 45C or greater in ambient temperature ;)
     
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  3. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    Having also used a Movi it also has to be balanced very well to work right. I am not too worried about shaking it. I had to put the Ronin in some pretty weird positions to throw it off. Once off axis it self corrected pretty quickly. Now the weight it is quite tubby. But it is also built like a tank for set life. I am ok with the weight we shoot with a easyrig for 90% of our shots. For the 10% we dont I am close to my camera op and he hands it off to me after a take.

    I tell my directors if you want a lens change expect 5 mins of down time. You have to set expectations because rushing a lens swap not balancing the rig leading to a overheat is not something I would want to do to my gear. The camera assistant in me will not let me lol.

    I am not sure how the ronin will hold up. But first and now second impressions later I think it's gonna rock.
     
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  4. Brett Harrison

    Brett Harrison Active Member

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    By 'disengage' what's meant is that the torque required to counteract the disturbance is greater than the draw/heat tolerance the machinery can achieve, meaning you have lost the shot because the system quits.


    Easyrig is okay for very slow moving stuff but any faster, and that body connection will show up on the shot (not to mention full boom range restriction / added height to the operator). Using a bungee cord helps somewhat (see Walter Klassen's slingshot).
     
  5. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    I saw the slingshot at Cinegear. Nice but expensive for what it is. 5K if you already have a vest. 2 adjustable arms and some surgical tubing Really?????? 5k
     
  6. Brett Harrison

    Brett Harrison Active Member

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    Also have to say, MoVI is set-resilient. I've roughed it up a bit. I saw a guy who does bike-mounted work with his and it was covered in dust. They're tough. But more important to verify first is the robustness of the device function. I haven't used Ronin so I can't comment.
     
  7. Arthur Vieira

    Arthur Vieira Flight Squad

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    Brett, what I mean by "Disengage" is exactly that, but I dint'd lose the shot :) I was filming a game for a reality show for TV and the director asked me to change the lens from a 100mm to a 23-300mm and set it on 200mm. This made the MoVI very, very, very unbalanced. Let's say that I had an Alexmoss board and this lens swap will require at least 15min to balance otherwise it will not even start. I know I was pushing the system but I couldn't stop and balance and also I wanted to test the MoVI and I have to say I took a while to the motor to disengage. The tilt simply lost power and the camera pointed down slowly, when I reached the system (it was installed on a cablecam car) the IMU was warm as the tilt motor was hot. I've turned it off, balanced the camera right and turned it on again. No surprises for the rest of the day.
    My point: It's good to know that even if you have a very unbalanced MoVI it will work up to the safety levels are reached, with and old Zenmuse this would have burned the Motor/controller. I'm not attacking nor defending any brands here, please, just exposing facts. I hope they have corrected this on the Ronin. :)
     
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  8. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    Lets also be fair the zenmuse motor you are comparing is 1/2 1/3 the size of the Movi motor. Apples and Oranges. Also if the Movi is the directors then let him treat it how ever he wants. If its yours or a buddys you take the time to use it correctly. What if the shot took 15 mins and the extra burn time killed a motor. Just because it didnt happen dose not mean it cant.
     
  9. Tabb Firchau

    Tabb Firchau Administrator
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    Chris, You wont burn out the motor in a MōVI. The system is smarter then that ;)
     
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  10. Arthur Vieira

    Arthur Vieira Flight Squad

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    That's what I was trying to say but got lost in translation :D
     
  11. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    Thanks Tab, for the info. I wanted to shake your hand at Cinegear but didn't see you around the booth. Loved the 5th scale truck with a Movi mounted on it. I almost took a job chasing cars on a track using my Kraken Drone. I was going to build a 5th scale truck just like yours to get some pretty cool shots on the same gig.
     
  12. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    For those who are waiting for DJI Ronin, it has been officially announced.

    As usual, DJI has some nice promotion videos but for those who were eagerly awaiting this gimbal might be dissappointed.

    Pre note: even this is a Freefly forum, I'm not a fan boy so facts are the first.

    I'll cut it short: Ronin's empty weight is 4.2 kg with handheld and 3.9 kg without handheld. This number is more than double of the weight of M10 ( 1.65 kg).

    So, it's very clear that, Ronin is not for aerial stuff. It's too heavy and M10 is the king for that. To simulate how heavy it is, after fully loading your copter as usual, just put extra two 10A 6S Lipo's to your copter but don't plug them. And try to fly and see the flight times and copter behaviours.

    For handheld work, even with the super light M10, after you load it with Epic, some good lens and accessories, it's kind of pain holding it continiously for 10 minutes. I can't imagine how your arms will feel after 10 minutes work with Ronin.

    It has it's advantages (marked bars for balancing, auto tuning - which is yet to be available on M10-, IOS app, aux battery outputs on the tilt bar).

    For those who want to carry the gimbal on ground vehicles where the weight is not an issue, it can work out.

    For aerial guys like me, and who depend on their muscles, there is nothing to beat M10 and M5 yet.
     
  13. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    One more note: As an experience, for DJI products it's better to wait real user tests.
     
  14. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    Some of us have moved past the limits of the 1000mm Cinestar 8 octocopter. I Fly a Kraken 1300 Octo that can and will lift the Ronin with a heavy camera and 2 16000mah batterys. Rock solid in the air with a great flight time.

    With the smaller DSLR 4k cameras I really hope to see the end of flying big cameras. I want our new Sony A7s to become our full time flying camera.
     
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  15. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    Hello Chris,

    If you are willing to lift a 40 lbs, the systems are available. But it comes with the price (not only in terms of money; also flight time, risks).

    My perspective for aerial filming is always keeping it simple and light. Weight is the most critical part of aerial filming, in my opinion Ronin doesn't fit in there; this is also claimed by DJI (Ronin is designed to be stationary not for flying).

    I'm sure DJI ronin will be lifted by lots of MR users, and will probably get good results. Right now, I prefer reading the experiences of early Ronin adaptors. As a user I'm very glad to have choices over there.
     
  16. Charles Bergquist

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    I usually don't get into stuff like this when it's one vs. another, but the Ronin is 9 lbs without a camera, that's insane. We shoot with an Epic fully kitted out a lot, and myself and my operator wouldn't be able to do close to what we do with something weighing more than the MoVI M10 does now. There's tech specs and real world work, where you're doing 4 - 6 set ups a day, there's no way that the Ronin would work for handheld stuff. There's other things that are more personal preference like having a dedicated small company building the MoVI in the US as well support that you can get in contact with.

    I do like their implementation of power ports however...*cough cough*...add that to the M15 upgrade Freefly.
     
  17. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    I have found just being bigger and heavier in the sky has really smoothed out our footage. We can fly 16kg for 19mins with our Kraken. I am very confident in our A2 FC. After watching our same setup break a motor mount in flight and still land safely With a zenmuse and 5d under it. Just with test flights strapping on a 10 pound plate she was fast and smooth. Again in my own opinion you need to be light because you are too small/underpowered for the weight you are trying to lift. Also how and or what you are shooting matters too. I had a show I was on that used a octocopter with a movi m10 under it. Flight time was around 8 mins. More then once they had it up in the air waiting for all the moving parts to start moving and poof right as it was time for their part of the shot..... Batt change coming in...
    I will not have that problem. And that is a huge problem having a larger rig solves.

    My personal feeling is the 1300 class or even bigger Octos is the right platform for the bigger cameras. 1000mm class Octos all day for GH4, 5D, BMPCC crowd.

    Last part is cost....... If you want to fly a RED spend the money to do it right.

    Also hoping they make a option for the Ronin to run off the main lipos and not have its own battery, that saves over a pound alone.
     
  18. Senthil Nathan

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    Here are my thoughts on the DJI Ronin vs Movi M10

    1) aluminum vs carbon fibre on the M10 (makes for a vast weight difference
    2) the briefcase feature looks more like a gimmick (really? How many people actually use it that way. Nice to have though)
    3) aluminum in certain cases is not as sturdy as carbon fibre in directional strength
    4) the unit has a horizon drift problem (I have had trouble with this on multiple DJI products)
    5) auto tuning after balancing is coming to the MOVI soon and balancing a gimbal just on its own is not a good idea for battery life or performance (I feel strongly on this one)
    6) I was on set one day and I said "hey guys heard about the DJI Ronin gimbal??? I was met with utter silence." The producers want a MoVI on set. They don't give a ****about the rest. It's a fact that I believe many here would agree on personal experience.
     
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  19. Chris Corsello

    Chris Corsello New Member

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    Here are my thoughts on the DJI Ronin vs Movi M10

    1) aluminum vs carbon fibre on the M10 (makes for a vast weight difference
    Its built like a tank no doubt. That is not always a bad thing. Stiffness makes a better performing gimbal. Also lets not forget the motors to carry 16 pounds will pack on some weight. I would compare the M15 vs the Ronin. I bet the M15 bulked up going to 15 pound payload. I felt some flex in my alexmos 32bit alexmos gimbal handle bars carrying a C300 and Cp2 lens and follow focus ect ect. the Ronin uses a 30mm handle bar more added weight but again stiffer.

    2) the briefcase feature looks more like a gimmick (really? How many people actually use it that way. Nice to have though)
    kidding right? That is a amazing feature. Ill give you 2 really good uses for the briefcase mode. Shooting low in a airplane isle. I just shot a special on planes a couple weeks ago using my Alexmos rig and during some passenger reenactment shots we wanted to get low and steady but didnt fit. :( My director didnt want to stop down for 5/10 mins while I pulled off the handlebars. It was a cool on the fly idea..... we moved on. #2 Low running so much better in this mode.

    3) aluminum in certain cases is not as sturdy as carbon fibre in directional strength
    In certain cases is the key word..... I bet in most cases how we would use the Movi/Ronin on set it's more likely to get something dropped on it. Or it dropped. Metal works, so will CF in certain cases ;)

    4) the unit has a horizon drift problem (I have had trouble with this on multiple DJI products)
    Some of the Zenmuse gimbals do. But the Ronin that nobody owns yet? Kinda pulling that one out your ass? If you are talking the nab videos we saw no real demo footage and they where prototypes. I would say try one and find out, dont just make stuff up.

    5) auto tuning after balancing is coming to the MOVI soon and balancing a gimbal just on its own is not a good idea for battery life or performance (I feel strongly on this one)
    That is great but I feel either Tab is holding back or they got caught flat footed. This is great auto calibrate is getting added.. The "Leader" in brushless gimbals is playing catch up....... Dont quite understand the battery part.

    I was on set one day and I said "hey guys heard about the DJI Ronin gimbal??? I was met with utter silence." The producers want a MoVI on set. They don't give a ****about the rest. It's a fact that I believe many here would agree on personal experience.

    I would say my 32bit alexmos gimbal who just had 3 gigs over the last 2 months. Leaving for a job on Monday. And another one in 2 weeks that has it gone and rented for 6 weeks. Disagrees with you. And so do I. Producers for the most part have no idea what they want. But they can remember most 4 letter words. I have never walked away from a DEMO where they said naaaa we want a MOVI. I booked every DEMO I gave to a Director/DP/Producer......

    By almost all standards the Ronin should rock and at 1/3 the price of the smaller less capable M10. we have no idea what the M15 will cost months after NAB. Think that is because of the Ronin I do...
     
  20. Senthil Nathan

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    Relax mate. If there is anyone pulling anything out of their asses, it would have to be you calling the M10 less capable even before you have had actually thoroughly tested the Ronin unit. Also, few pounds in weight makes a huge difference. Units like these need to be as light as possible to facilitate better movements for sustained periods.
    And regarding the point on the battery.... It's quite sad you do not understand that balance directly affects the battery life of a unit. Go do some reading up mate. Auto balancing (not auto tuning.. Both are different) is not a good idea for battery life.
    In the end, if you think the Ronin is the one for you by all means get it and have fun. I think it would be an awesome product for its price.e on the other hand? MoVI all the way. Still believe they are the best in the game as an ecosystem of devices and accessories.
     

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