Movi Smartphone Cinema Robot Payload Specs Please.....

Discussion in 'Movi Technical' started by Maroot Nanakul, Apr 11, 2018.

  1. Maroot Nanakul

    Maroot Nanakul New Member

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    Hi. I'm under the impression that Movi worked with Moment Lens. I'm aware counterweights are available to offset the weight of external lenses such as Moment and maybe even clip on lenses. Counterweighting is fine and dandy but there gets to be a point that the counterweight is beyond the design capabilities of the gimbal motors. For example, a 8 oz. lens+filters and 8 oz. counterweight (1 lb total) may be too toooo heavy. I know if it's "balanced" the gimbal motors don't have to work too hard, but there's a limit, right? So my question is: Exactly what is the Payload Maximum of the Movi Smartphone Cinema Robot? I know other gimbal manufacturers such as Zhiyun have different size gimbals. The larger the model, the greater the payload capability ie. smartphone...point and shoot....small mirrorless ... DSLR's etc. So my question is: Exactly what is the Payload Maximum of the Movi Smartphone Cinema Robot?
     
  2. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Maroot:
    As far as I am aware, that information's not been published -- certainly I've not seen it. You might want to open up a support ticket by sending an email to Freefly Support (support@freeflysystems.com) and asking that question.

    Sorry I can't be of more help.
    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
  3. Maroot Nanakul

    Maroot Nanakul New Member

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    Thanks Andy for your reply. I really appreciate it. I wasn’t asking you personally per se but just wanted to put put the question out there so all can see. I’m sure I’m not the only one wondering.

    I shouldn’t think everyone that wants to know the real answer to Payload spec shouldn’t have to open a personal trouble ticket with Support just to answer a common question. I think it should be part of the other specs just like Max Phone Size, Battery Charge Time, Battery Type, Gimbal Rotation Degrees etc.

    It seems to me when companies don’t reveal the Payload specs from the get go is because the device is probably close to its limits with the Moment Lens and Counterweight. Otherwise the company would boast about its payload potential. Like....Payload - Up to 64oz (1,814g) Amazing!! :)

    To give an example, my iPhone 8 Plus without case is 202g and with a Sandmarc case and Wide Lens is 296g which is comparable to the Moment case and Wide lens. Add Counterweight of 100-200g , you're looking for a approximate Payload of 400-500g. Probably close to its limits.

    Ideally, I'd like to be able to add a 62mm ND filter but then I'd have to add the appropriate counterweight too. It starts to add up fast.

    I’m not saying it’s good or bad. Maybe it’s a trade secret. But one would think one would want to know what the limitations are going in to it. Not by trial and error or DIY solutions. At least that’s what I think. At least you would know what to expect.

    Cheers!!
     
    #3 Maroot Nanakul, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  4. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Maroot:
    I understand what you're saying, but given that the information is not part of the specifications page, I was not not sure what else to suggest.

    I'm not sure that failing to disclose data means that something's on the thin edge of working -- although I confess to that same reaction when companies don't post prices on web sites! :)

    What I did do for you is to take my iPhone X in an Otterbox case (256 grams) and used a Velcro tie to hold my iPhone 6 on the front. The total combination is 386 grams -- plus I had 28 grams of counterbalance for a total of 414 grams. The combination is badly out of balance in the pitch axis, of course, but I balanced it in roll.

    It works fine -- and the motors do not get even warm to the touch when I used it in Majestic mode for five minutes.

    It's obviously not an official FF specification, but at least we know that it will work with 414 grams.

    I did try strapping a 1,000 gram calibration weight on in place of any phone -- the tilt motor could NOT lift that. So the limit is somewhere between 414 grams and 1,000 grams.

    Hope that helps.
    Andy
    MoviCR with iPhoneX and iPhone 6 plus 28 g of counterweight.jpg
     
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  5. Maroot Nanakul

    Maroot Nanakul New Member

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    Good to know. Thanks Andy. Thanks for going to the extra mile to perform your experiment.

    I'm not expecting amazing potential Payload specs from the Movi Smartphone Cinema Robot (MR) although, a pleasant surprise would be nice. I'm just looking for full disclosure from a company that I have high respect for.

    Still looking forward to getting a MR of my own. Anxiously.

    Cheers!
     
  6. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Hi, maybe I can help. Today I received my counterweights, am an iPhoneX user and also own ALL Moment Lenses. If there is something I can test, let me know.
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I think Maroot would be interested to know the total weight for iPhone X with Moment's heaviest lens, plus the necessary counterweights, Frank.

    Cheers
    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
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  8. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Well, the heaviest lens from Moment is the wide. I am still testing but it seems I need the biggest weights for balancing - all on my iPhoneX with the normal Moment case (the Battery version won't fit for sure!)

    BUT: check out this: https://d.pr/v/LYWWlX When turning too much the motor is really overstrained. Unfortunately I can't take a pic of everything cause I only have my iPhoneX here - which I need to attach the Moment lens. But all in all I think small easy movements won't be a problem. As far as it becomes more it's the end for smooth balanced videos.
     
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  9. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Even it's not the concrete answer to Maroots question, but here you get some more infos about the MOVI in combination of Moment:





    Maybe that helps a bit. I have to admit that I still have to find a good position of the (heavy) counterweights, so the wide lens (their heaviest lens) is well balanced. Would be great to get some more tips and tricks from others who also own this combo.
     
  10. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Frank: Did you retune for the specific payload carried by the Movi? I can see some oscillation in the video you posted that suggests you may not have auto-tuned and/or manually adjusted it.

    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
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  11. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Hi Andy, you're totally right. I forgot to retune the MOVI. Will test it this evening, also with different positions of the counterweights. Unfortunately there is no guideline from FF or Moment which weight for which lens etc. Maybe something for a quick tutorial put here https://gomovi.com/tutorials
     
  12. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Frank: You may find that you have to manually adjust after autotuning -- and watch out, if the Movi's big brothers (the MoVI) are any indication, autotune gets close to the optimum point, but then you may well have to sneak the settings up or down by a small amount. If you're tempted to adjust by large amounts, it's easy to skip right by the sweet spot and conclude that there is no sweet spot!

    Also be sure to hold the Movi as you intend to use it -- if you autotune with it on a flat surface, then it changes the natural resonances from those were you to hold it with one or two hands.

    What I then do is slowly move the Movi (or the MoVI) through the entire range of motion and listen/feel for any tendency to oscillate (watching the image on the phone screen amplifies the vibration so its easier to spot) -- that tells me that one or more of the settings are too high, so I'll pick one axis and adjust its stiffness settings down a notch. It sounds like a lot of work, but it is worth it -- and it seems pretty repeatable, so you can for a given combination of camera, lens, weights, how you hold it, make a note of the settings and get back to very close to the sweet spot.

    Also, as I'm sure you'll find, the whole process gets much faster with practice, of course.

    Hope this helps!
    Grüße,
    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
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  13. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Hi Andy,

    thx again for your detailed help. Honestly I am a bit insecure about manually "finetunig" all these adjustment options. You know, sometimes you can destroy more than repair ;-)

    Do you see any chance to make a quick video how YOU calibrate the MOVI? That would be a really great help. The tutorials on the FF website are nice, but very general. When there is a need to go into deeper (settings) there's actually nothing :-(

    "Herzliche Grüße",

    Frank
     
  14. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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  15. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Hi Gary, thx, but I'm not talking about the "1 + 1 = 2" level :D I talk about going into the deep settings, manual settings. Especially the hint from Andy about "...be sure to hold the Movi as you intend to use it -- if you autotune with it on a flat surface, then it changes the natural resonances..."

    You know, there is so much possible to set up but you also can "destroy" if too much groped.
     
  16. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Frank:
    I could certainly make such a video but my concern is that it may still end up not being too much help because each Movi is likely to have its own "personality" -- so my settings would not be your settings even if you and I had exactly the same "payload" on the Movi.

    I very much doubt there is anything that you could do during the autotuning/manual fine tuning that will damage the Movi. You are more likely to damage it by dropping it on the floor (please don't test this theory!)

    Although I'm not an FF employee (just a volunteer) I have seen how thoroughly FF tests its equipment (for which read "tortures" their equipment), and even if you put the adjustments to crazy (aka "Scheißkopf") settings, all that will happen is that you will have re-invented a good massager for your neck and back! :rolleyes: I've even tried powering up the Movi with no iPhone mounted on it and all it did was vibrate like crazy and started to move itself towards the edge of my desk...

    In the hope that you find it helpful, perhaps I should explain in more detail what autotune is doing. It waggles the Movi gimbal + payload back and forth (you can see/hear/feel it doing this) to determine what the resonant frequencies of the payload + gimbal are, and then adjusts the stiffness values to the near-optimal point where the gimbal is as responsive as possible without it oscillating.

    In more technical terms the Movi uses PID (Proportional Integral Differential) controllers and the issue is one of getting the "gains" set correctly. The best example of a PID I've heard is to imagine that you're driving your car on to an autobahn/freeway, so you need to accelerate up to the correct speed, thus you press harder on the accelerator to gain speed. As you approach the speed you want, you then reduce the pressure on the accelerator until it's just enough to hold you at the correct speed -- increasing and decreasing that pressure to match the flow of traffic. More aggressive drivers press harder on the accelerator and tend to overshoot and undershoot the required pressure (please don't tell my wife I wrote this... :eek: )

    And that's what the three PID controllers are doing to stabilize the Movi gimbal + payload in the three axes -- the "stiffness" values are just another name for "how aggressive do you want me to be?" The autotune percentage is just a mathematical constant for how significant the autotuning values should be.

    But after autotuning, you may still need to "tweak" the settings for the best performance without any tendency for the Movi PIDs to cause oscillation -- and that's where, if you're not careful, you can increase/decrease the values by too much and inadvertently skip right past the optimal values.

    Of course, you can probably see now why the "tune it like you use it" is so important -- the resonant frequencies of the Movi gimbal + payload change if your hands are acting as shock absorbers and altering those frequencies.

    Hope this all helps!
    Grüße,
    Andy.

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
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  17. Maroot Nanakul

    Maroot Nanakul New Member

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    Hi All
    Thanks Frank, Andy, Gary and all others who might be interested on the Movi Payload limits.

    I enjoy and learn from all your comments such as re-tuning/re-calibrating the Movi, Movi PID etc.

    When loading down the Movi (or any brand of gimbal system for that matter) with Lens and counterweights eventually will get you to the point of motor inefficiency and strain. Another words a Movi with a bare iPhone 8 will work more robustly than a Movi loaded with an iPhone 8 with Case, Lens and Counterweights I'm assuming.

    So all I'm wondering is what the Maximum recommended Payload Specification Weight for the Movi as stated from Freefly.

    That way, any Movi User can set their phone (any phone) with or without case, lens and counterweight on a scale and compare it to see if they're over or under the stated Payload Spec.

    For example you can probably get away with a more sophisticated lens setup like a Moment Wide Lens with Moment Case, a Moment 62mm Filter Adapter, a 62mm ND Filter, another 62mm Effects Filter and the required Counterweights on a iPhone 8 vs the same setup on an iPhone 8Plus or iPhone X. All this because the iPhone 8 is physically smaller and weights less than the 8 Plus or X (and falls within the elusive Movi Payload Specs)

    I know you can achieve all this by trial and error and experimenting BUT it would also be nice to know what stated limits are too.

    I guess it's really no big deal, but nice to know. Nice to know how the Movi compares to its competition. Nice to know if the Movi is going to work for the gear you had in mind. Your gear may be too heavy for the Movi. If so, shed some weight, make the necessary adjustments, else, the Movi is not for you.
     
  18. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    It seems that the combo MOVI + iPX + MomentWide seems to be no problem

    By the way Moment seems to be involved somehow in the production - minimum with usefull input. Got this from here
    and here
     
  19. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    After got up at 4:30 am in the morning, I did some exercise on #iPhoneography for my Instagram account (also just a the beginning) https://www.instagram.com/ifranky and tried to learn more about #Timelapse.

    Today I mounted the counterweights on the MOVI cause I shot with the Moment Wide lens. I really have to figure out the perfect balance. Honestly not easy :mad: - or I'm simply too stupid. Nevertheless it "somehow" worked. Here a little "Making of" with my Insta360 One

     
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  20. Alistair Tibble

    Alistair Tibble New Member

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    Hi What is the maximum weight then for the gimbal?? I will also be using iPhone 8 Plus with MOVI

    Thank you very much for your help.

    Alistair
     

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