What am I doing wrong?

Discussion in 'MōVI M5' started by Hugo van Dijke, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. Hugo van Dijke

    Hugo van Dijke New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi,

    For the life of me I can't figure out why I am unable to get real smooth shots with the Movi M5. I have a Blackmagic Pocket Camera balanced on it, combined with a fairly heavy monitor (7", 800g). I first had the monitor on the left side of the bar and tried moving it to the top handle, to better even out the weight. I use it solely handheld in Majestic mode.

    My settings are about:

    Pan stiffness: 140
    Roll: 25
    Tilt: 24
    Autotune percentage: 49 (also tried with zero / 10 / 25 etc, with similar results).

    Pan smoothing: 8
    Tilt smoothing: 10

    Pan / roll / tilt hold strength: 4

    I am running three (flexible) cables from the camera: a HyperThin HMDI cable, a LANC cable (to one of the handles) and a cable for my battery solution. The camera is completely balanced on all axes, but still most of my results keep looking like this:



    (Password: Freefly - and don't mind the crappy quality, exported as Prores Proxy).

    I always try walking with my knees bend, and with my entire foot flat on the wrong like you're supposed too.

    What am I doing wrong? Is my monitor too heavy? Are my settings wrong?

    Thanks for your reply,

    Regards,

    Hugo
     
  2. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Hugo:

    Do bear in mind that the physics of the MōVI is such that it cannot remove vertical motion (that is, motion along any of the axes) -- it can only remove rotational motion about the pan, tilt and roll axes. So the vertical "bounce" that I see is something that it cannot remove -- that has to done by the operator, I'm afraid.

    The way I learned to walk was with the MōVI was to fill a coffee cup to the brim with water (why waste good coffee?) and then walk with it without spilling any. It caused my neighbors (and their dogs) some considerable concern when they saw me doing it. :rolleyes:

    Andy.
     
  3. Hugo van Dijke

    Hugo van Dijke New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0

    Thanks for your reply, Andy, but the footage make me believe it's not just the walking. I could live with vertical bounce (although I will definitely try the water-idea), but it just doesn't seem that steady to me - as if it isn't properly balanced, when it is.
     
  4. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    As was mentioned on http://forum.freeflysystems.com/index.php?threads/need-evaluation-on-small-video.6642/#post-61371 today by Brett Harrison, try walking with the MōVI motors powered off -- see his message #6 at the link above.

    Once you're sure that the balance is good, with the motors on, and without walking, just shoot some footage where you tilt the MōVI up and down and see how the camera responds. If it's "sluggish" to respond or if it "over-responds", then you know the tuning is off. Brett's message #5 is on-point here too.

    Hope this helps.

    Andy.
     
  5. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    5,211
    Likes Received:
    460
    Hugo try changing the autotune to 70% and use that as a starting point. Even with Autotune you should be holding the rig the way you will be using it. So don't autotune while it is in the stand. Do it while you are holding it.
     
  6. TJ_Sheridan

    TJ_Sheridan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hey guys, so here's an obvious question for ya: Is an image stabilized camera essential for using the M5 in Majestic Mode for ground work? I can't get smooth video to save my life no matter how smooth I walk with any of my prime lenses, but if I put on a variable lens with IS, I can get decent stuff. Those of you using these systems for pro ground work, are you using either IS lenses or IBIS cameras for your smooth shots?

    I'm using a GH4 right now with a 14mm prime to start, and have a 14-42 with PowerOIS that does much better. I figured the point of dropping $4k on a pro gimbal was to act as a camera stabilizer so I wouldn't have to use IS lenses and could use some of my bright prime lenses for low light work. Was that a misconception on my part?
     
  7. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    TJ: The short answer is no, you shouldn't need to use the OIS lenses to get smooth video.
    The long answer is: could you post some of the video that you're getting that causes you to say that you cannot get smooth video? Are you seeing vertical motion as you walk, or is the camera/MōVI oscillating in tllt, pan, and/or roll?

    The usual problem (and I'm not saying yours is the usual problem) is that either the camera's not correctly balanced, or the autotuning is not getting close enough to the correct settings (often because 1) the autotune value is not set to around 70% or 2) because folks are not autotuning the MōVI supporting it during the autotune exactly the same way they're holding it for the shoot.

    To test if the balance is correct, try shooting a test video as you walk but with the MōVI powered off. Please post that video as it will help in the diagnosis.

    Andy.
     
  8. TJ_Sheridan

    TJ_Sheridan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    I will get some video in the morning when the sun's back up. I did use the 70% autotune value, and did so while hand holding the gimbal, so the autotune should be pretty close. It's perfectly balanced, except a tiny bit of left leaning on the pan due to the battery adding weight to the left side. But it's the tilt that's not solid, not the yaw. Yaw and roll seem pretty good to me.

    I had a friend with an M5 and similar camera setup email me his config file. I loaded that up to compare the settings, but still am not getting a solid tilt hold. Even if I'm holding it steady, and carefully rock it forward and back a couple of degrees, the tilt isn't stable.
     
  9. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    TJ: I think you're rapidly getting to the point where you should open up a support ticket by emailing to support@freeflysystems.com -- include the link to this thread.

    Good idea to get your friend's M5 config file. It really starts to sound like there is an issue with the tilt axis.

    Andy.
     
  10. TJ_Sheridan

    TJ_Sheridan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    K, here's a video demonstrating the two setups, one with autotune, and one with my friend's settings.

    VIDEO TEST on DROPBOX
     
  11. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Sorry...I made a posting that I think is wrong -- I've deleted it rather than confuse people. I need to get to my M5 tomorrow and run some tests now that I see the video.

    Been a long day...
    Andy.
     
  12. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    OK. Let's try that again. I went to my studio to get the M5...

    TJ: I put the GH4 and 12mm lens on the camera on to the M5 and retraced your process. See the attached file -- I created it by using the Configurator App's "Save Settings" which writes the file out as a plain text file (although the file name ends with .cfg).

    If you have a copy of Microsoft Word, open the file attached to this posting, repeat the process of Save Settings on your M5, and then use the Tools -> Track Changes -> Compare Documents feature -- this will then highlight the differences.

    If you don't have Word, then just eyeball the changes and see what's different.
    It might also be a good idea to post *your* .cfg file so we can see the differences.

    Andy
     

    Attached Files:

  13. TJ_Sheridan

    TJ_Sheridan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Thanks Andy. I've autotuned several times now, and your key settings are fairly close to mine, but I'm going to load your CFG file onto my M5 anyway, just to see if there's a change. I'd love to see an example video of you walking with your rig at those settings, so I could compare my results with the same exact settings. That'd be educational for sure.
     
  14. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    At 00:04:10 in your video you set the Autotune Percentage to 70%, Write Settings, but appear not to run another actual autotune? Is that correct? See the section of the manual:

    Autotune – MōVI Controller Support 3.08 introduces the ability to automatically calibrate stiffness​
    settings on a balanced MōVI. To initiate the Autotune function, go to SYSTEM-> Autotune. With the MōVI in​
    the stand and stable, Autotune will go through the steps required to tune the MōVI based on the Autotune
    Percentage setting under Tuning. It is recommended to use the stock setting of 50% for M10s and 70% for​
    dual cage MōVIs such as the M5 and M15.​

    I'm not sure that's the specific problem you're seeing, but it seemed a bit odd to just change the Autotune percentage and not do an autotune (you may, of course, have edited that part out!)

    Andy.
     
  15. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162

    Don't be surprised if my settings don't work well on your M5 -- I'm using a different lens and autotune gives different values depending on whether you have a lens hood on or not (I did not).

    I'm not sure I'll have a chance to shoot test video tomorrow -- got a lot going on....for the next couple of days.

    Andy.
     
  16. TJ_Sheridan

    TJ_Sheridan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Isn't it true that Autotune is just doing the same thing that a normal operator would do when tuning a gimbal manually? You turn up the settings, one axis at a time, until it starts to shake/buzz, then you back it off a bit til the buzzing stops, then you move that axis through a range of motion to determine if you've backed off enough. Then you do the same for the other two orientations. All Autotune does is that process. I've tried dozens of settings, pushing right up to the buzz and backing off, with a variety of lenses both heavy & light. I get the same lazy tilt axis, no matter what. I'll do it again, but I wonder if there might not be some other reason for it.

    I do find it interesting that the instructions you posted said to leave the gimbal on the stand/cradle while tuning rather than holding it, as others on the forum have suggested.

    I'll keep trying, and see if Quadrocopter.com support has any input for me. I don't think I'll get anything from FreeFly since I didn't buy direct.

    Thanks for the prompt replies!
     
  17. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,366
    Likes Received:
    1,162
    Yeah. I think the community figured out that you get a better autotuning if you do it supporting the MōVI the way you're actually going to be using it -- and that's not reflected in FF's manual.

    I infer from what you said that in your video you set Autotune Percentage to 70% and then did another autotune but it's not shown on the video (as I thought might be the case).

    I'll monitor this thread so I can see when you post your .cfg file that corresponds to the video you posted. I'm interested to see it.

    I've not heard that FF only provides technical support to direct sales -- it might be the case -- but I've not heard that.

    Andy.
     

Share This Page