weight difference cs6 vs cs8

Discussion in 'Cinestar 6' started by Wolfgang Armin, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Hi all,
    we have a new law in our country, starting on 2014-01-01.
    Beside other "problems" it differentiates between several weight classes, one of which being <5kg.
    Since I think it will be impossible to get my CS8 with my MoVI M10 beyond that limit, I'm looking for alternatives. One being a CS6.
    I hope somebody would be able and kind enough to answer two questions:
    1. what's the weight difference between CS6 and CS8.
    2. would the CS6 lift the Movi with a lighter camera?

    Don't ask me why a hexacopter with 5kg should be less of a risk than an oktokopter with 5,3kg. Before the new law I was thinking about getting a heavy lifter, now I'm thinking the opposite.

    Thanks in advance for any input and ideas.
     
  2. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Hi Wolfgang: Apologies -- I don't know the answers, but I'm amazed at the arbitrariness of the 5Kg limit. That always seems to be the case with legislation -- I suspect it was chosen because it was a "nice number" and for no other basis.

    What additional restrictions are you subjected to if the AUW is 5,001 grams?

    Andy.
     
  3. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    5,211
    Likes Received:
    460
    Wolfgang you could model this in ecalc (www.eclac.ch). Rule of thumb might be easy. If you are at 50% throttle in hover today with a CS8 and you remove 25% of the motors your throttle could go up to 65% or so. The weight savings of two booms, motors and props would help but not that much. Standard booms are about 40g, motor mount 25g, motor 140g and prop maybe 30g. So 235g x 2, 470g.

    Better solution might be to go to 6S but then with the larger motors and batteries you may find yourself right back with the same weight issue.
     
  4. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Hey guys, thanks for the quick reply.
    Gary, 470g is quite a lot - that would help a bit.

    Andy, yes - totally arbitrary and quite the oposite of what they tend to do. An octocopter should be safer than a quad or hexa, but it´s close to impossible to stay with camera below 5kg.
    Additional restrictions? Oh well - where shall I start :-(.
    First you have to register any copter carrying a camera with authorities.
    Second, they classify aeras into 4 categories undeveloped, uninhabited, populated and densely populated (I - IV)
    Third, they classify copters into: below 5kg, 5-25kg and 25-150kg
    From that they create a matrix see this link on page 6
    At registry, you have to get an operating approval for A,B,C or D
    While A is rather easy, starting at B it gets close to impossible, because you need to have redundancy for
    • Transmitter (Power, antenna, electronic failure,...)
    • Receiver
    • Data Connection
    • Motor, Propeller, etc. failure
    • Battery or wire failure
    • flight stabilizer
    • GPS
    • Telemetry
    There are several discussions going on in german boards - it seems there is no system you can buy at the moment to even get to B - not talking about C or D.

    It gets even worse: FPV will only be alowed if you hold a pilots license (YES, one for a real plane).
    etc. etc. etc.
    At best these regulations are rediculous. I´m totally for regulations, otherwise there would simply be too many copters flying around everywhere. There are already too many insane pilots landing on operating trains, flying through wind turbines, etc.. But regulations should be possible to follow - this is just totally random.

    You see, it does make a difference to keep below 5kg. At least that would entitle us to fly in uninhabited areas. I was about to invest into a heavy lifter before the final regulations were published. Now I try to build a light lifter. It seems the Austrian film industry is bound to the gopro when it comes to aerial filming.
     
  5. John Butkus

    John Butkus Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    12
    What great ideas; landing on moving trains and flying through windmills. Can't wait to try those. ;)
     
    Scott Strimple likes this.
  6. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2012
    Messages:
    3,979
    Likes Received:
    807
    [quote="Wolfgang Armin, post: 35025, member: 355”]It seems the Austrian film industry is bound to the gopro when it comes to aerial filming.[/quote]

    ...or folks will just head across the border to friendlier territory. The US film industry has seen that happen a lot, and I fear that the US aerial business will be in similar straights when (or if) they ever do issue real regulations. Meanwhile, we all continue to operate in a “fly and pray the FAA don’t get wind of what you’re doing” mode. Not great. :(
     
  7. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Wolfgang: Would the Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera be too heavy?

    As an American humorist (Will Rogers) said (speaking of the USA), "Be thankful you don't have all the government you pay for." It sounds like in Austria you might actually be getting all the government you pay for. :(

    Andy.
     
  8. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Andy, I was thinking about that camera, but the lack of wideangle options made me skip the idea.
    Yes, our current government is really worth every penny. However - we must not forget that we are still moaning on high levels, it´s just the arbitrariness of untaught polititians that sometimes makes me crazy.
     
  9. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    True, it's a 4/3 sensor, but I believe Katya is flying it with a 14mm lens, if I'm not mistaken. The real problem (going from what she said) was that with the really wide lenses, the front element protrudes forward and make it hard (or impossible) to put ND filters on.

    Andy.
     
  10. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Yes, too bad other than that I'd love that cam. I'm looking at the new sony 7(r). Not the same quality for video, but an option. But I guess with a decent lens (no real super wides available anyway) I'd be over the limit again, not talking about an external recorder.
     
  11. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Wow. Even that pushes you above the limit? I would imagine you must be thinking about creative ways to use bags of helium to reduce the all up net weight on the copter....

    No chance that the law makers will see reason?

    Andy.
     
  12. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Haha, that would be a great solution ;-).
    Currently my cs8 with 3-axis gimbal and Sony CX730 is the absolute limit - using my plastic screw method. But I'd like to use the MoVI instead, and I guess they won't approve a copter with plastic screws. That will add around 400-500g me thinks, leaving me with a Gopro only opportunity that won't balance too well on the MoVI :-D.
    It's frustrating, within the last two years I have spent a huge lot of time and money into professional gear, knowledge and practicing. And now I think about selling everything.
    I think I will sit and wait what the first people trying to get their copter approved will tell. I don't have high hopes that law makers will change their minds. It took them decades to deregulate our photography business, which happened just yesterday. We have a new 27 year old foreign minister, that just about says it all.
     
  13. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Wolfgang: If it helps any, the Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera with the Lumix 14-15mm f3.5-4.5 lens weighs 565 grams.
    I don't happen to have a CX760 where I can weigh it easily, but I'm sure you do! :)

    As you say, it's best not to hold your breath waiting for regulators to apply common sense, especially in areas that they do not understand.

    Andy.
     
  14. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Hi Andy,
    thanks a lot for the info - that´s about what I expected. CX730 is about 600g with battery. I´ll try to contact support regarding CS6vs8 weight. And see what route I´ll go.
     
  15. Hi All - Here are the weights for the frame kits - keep in mind this is the weight unassembled with plastic wrap packaging.

    Cinestar 8 450 mm booms. 2lb. 9oz. (1.16kg)
    Cinestar 6 400mm booms. 2lb. 3 oz. (0.99kg)

    Not a large weight savings between the two in terms of frame only but I assume in your case, every kilo (or fraction thereof) counts.

    *A thank you to our friends at Quadrocopter for getting me this info as we didn't have any full kits lying around.
     
  16. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Thanks a big lot, denise - and quadrocopter team - very much appreciated.

    That saves 170g + another 2x140g for the motors, that´s 450g + props and very close to Garys estimate - respect, Gary!
    Perhaps MK´s new BL-Ctrl 3.0 is lighter too (without the need for coolers) and will bring me down even further. So far I haven´t seen a hexa-version though.
     
  17. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    The heat sinks are made from aluminium (aka "aluminum"), Wolfgang, so they probably weigh less than 5-10 grams.

    Andy.
     
  18. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Andy, I've got 12 of them installed ;-)
     
  19. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    Understood. I just weighed a pack of four MC-20 heat sinks: 10 grams. So 12 should be 30 grams.
    Of course, you might have larger/smaller heavier/lighter ones, but...
    Andy
     
  20. Wolfgang Armin

    Wolfgang Armin Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    25
    Hahaha, I have monster-heat sinks :-D.
    Too bad, but thanks for weighing the sinks, Andy!!!
     

Share This Page