Radian with Graupner MX 16 setup

Discussion in 'Radian' started by Mark Melville, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    I have an Mx 16 destined for camera control. What are the correct channel settings for pan , tilt and roll in the Radian software setup. I want to use the left hand side 3 position switch (sw 4, ctrl 9, sw 5) for off, fixed position stabilized, stabilized slew. I've tied setting it per the instruction manual but I get absolutely no response when I turn the TX. I have upgraded the firmware to the latest version. Also how do I assign the joysticks? I want to use the left joystick for pan left/right and the right joystick for tilt up/down. Thx
     
  2. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Mark:
    I'm assuming you are using an MX-20 transmitter.I'd suggest using the Servo Display on the menu list (it's quite far down the menu!) to verify that sticks and the switch are indeed on the channels you have set the Radian sensors too. There really are no "correct" Radian channels -- you can choose them as you see fit.

    That said the default channels (which you can see on the Servo Display) are:
    Channel/Control
    1 / Throttle (Left stick, backwards/forwards)
    2 / Aileron (Right stick, left/right)
    3 / Elevator (Right stick, backwards/forwards)
    4 / Rudder (Left stick, left/right)

    I happen to have control 9 on channel 9, but that's just how I assigned it.

    With the Tx/Rx bound correctly, try working on one Radian sensor at a time, say, the Pan sensor first.

    Connect up the Radian software and the 3/2 cable to ports 5 and 6 as described in the Radian documentation. Make sure you can connect the Radian software to the Radian sensor, then select Pan-1 as the defaults and write those to the Radian sensor (just to check all is well).

    Then assign the slew control channel to 2 (Aileron) and Mode to channel 9 (if that's what you assigned Ctrl 9 to).
    Make sure the MX-20 is radiating RF and the GR-16's LED is green (bound) and then you should see in the Radian Software diagnostic window the Slew control bar moving left and right when you waggle the Aileron control (Right stick, left/right).

    Hope this helps.
    Andy
     
  3. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    Andy I'll give these things a try and see what happens.

    Thx,

    Mark
     
  4. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    Hey Andy,

    I'm a DP and have shot a couple of films in Portland. Loved it!!! Great town. What I'm trying to say is I'm a movie guy and not an RC guy.

    Ok. Making some progress. I set up the Pan Radian per your suggestions. I have control in of the slew via the left hand stick in the diagnostic window. The GR 16 is bound to the TX. The TX is SUM 0 and on channel 8. However when I turn on the TX. The Radian shows solid orange and flashing green at the same time. I have control in the window but when I plug in the the servo. Nothing. No control what so ever via the TX.
     
  5. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    No worries Andy. Think we got it figured out. Pretty exciting to see everything moving when you move the sticks
     
  6. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Thanks for the update Mark -- just in case somebody else has the same problem as you do and reads this thread in the future, can you explain what you found that was wrong?


    I'm with you by the way: I'm computers/video/aviation, not originally an RC guy. It's a steep learning curve, isnt it? Welcome to the world of PWM, PPM, S.bus, Channels, servos, slew/pan, tilt/nick, roll/dutch. Add to that Lipos, Kv, and BL-Ctrils/ESC, and the Vertical Cliff of Mystery is complete....

    Thanks
    Andy
     
  7. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    Yes, a very steep learning curve. Problem is I just don't have much time to stay after this. I live in Rome and I'm shooting a series which is very demanding. Tons of special efx's, challenging locations and a demanding schedule. Plus motion picture technology is in constant evolution and i need to stay on top of that. Lot's of fun though.

    Fortunately I have a partner who has a degree in electronics engineering and is an RC freak. Great pilot too. I just see tremendous creative possibilities with this. I hope to post some real cool footage soon. We shoot at some amazing locations and can't wait to use it on the show.
     
  8. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Put another way, the aerial photography should be means to an end, not an end in itself, right? But you're right about video technology changing almost as fast as the copter technology. Looks like Sony's F55 might give Red a run for their money...

    I'm afraid that you may find that the Cinestar does demand a fair amount of attention as an airborne platform, but it sounds like your partner will bear the brunt of that.

    Speaking personally, I found that flying the Cinestar to get goo smooth footage was a non-trivial thing to learn -- in fact, I'm still very much learning how to do that and that's with dozens of hours on simulators and Blade mQX quadcopters.

    I found I really had to throttle back on my expectations in the early days -- nothing as simple as plonking a camera on a jib and going out to shoot.

    By the way, what did you find that was wrong that made your original problem go away?

    Thanks
    Andy
     
  9. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    I'm in no way expecting miracles at first. I know this will take time.

    Although my partner is a good pilot, I need to train him in understanding how a shot works. The majority of material I see are beauty shots of nature. So there really is no beginning or end to the shot. My needs are to integrated aerial footage with actors doing action. Very different concept. I think most of the guys doing this come from a RC/pilot background. I almost think it would be better to train a camera operator to fly however I know that the learning curve is steep and I need to get this in the air and start making a couple of bucks.

    As far as camera's go, there's so much change happening. Only the recent advances in digital technology allows to mount cameras that rival film as a capture medium. I've shot tons of both 35 and 16mm film. The series we're doing is in it's second year and in it's first year we shot on Super 16mm. This year we're using the Arriflex Alexa. Gorgeous!!!! Weight and cost prohibitive for our needs.

    I've been holding off on a camera solution because I was very curious about the Blackmagic Design Camera. Now that footage is becoming available I'm pretty sold on it. For $3000 it's pretty impressive as far as image quality. It shoots 2.5k RAW as well as Pro Res HQ which is an excellent high quality Codec.

    As far as my guy figuring out the problem he mumbled "I get it" flicked a couple of switches and ran off to work. We still have to figure out the rest but we're on good path. i know it had to do with channel assignments on the MX 16.

    What do you suggest for gain settings? I was playing with the pan function and noticed that if you stick it to fast it starts oscillating. I'm sure the gain setting also have to do with the weight of the camera. Right now I have a little Canon HD mounted just for testing purposes which I figure weighs about as much as your Sony.

    Take care.

    Mark
     
  10. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I hear ya!
    Interesting point you make on the different kinds of shot types. The noise of the C8 precludes using it when you're running ground-based cameras and recording nat sound, so that adds it's own challenge.

    Tabb: We need Stealth Cinestars!

    The rate of change is pretty frightening -- hardly makes sense to buy if you can rent or lease because the kit becomes obsolescent the moment you power it up the first time.

    There's a nice review by Philip Bloom here.
    The downsides appear to be the power requirements. I've also heard niggles about the frame rates (or lack of).

    http://philipbloom.net/2012/09/05/bmd/
    As far as my guy figuring out the problem he mumbled "I get it" flicked a couple of switches and ran off to work. We still have to figure out the rest but we're on good path. i know it had to do with channel assignments on the MX 16.
    [/quote]

    OK. Channel assignments are part of the secret handshake of the RC world -- or so it seemed when I first got "into" RC.
    You have the control sticks/switches which are mapped on to channels, which are then transmitted to the receiver, which are then transmitted to the MK boards where they are mapped on to POTI's which are then mapped on to controlling certain functions.

    I'm working on an educational DVD that's going to cover all this stuff (MK Tool, etc.)

    http://philipbloom.net/2012/09/05/bmd/
    What do you suggest for gain settings? I was playing with the pan function and noticed that if you stick it to fast it starts oscillating. I'm sure the gain setting also have to do with the weight of the camera. Right now I have a little Canon HD mounted just for testing purposes which I figure weighs about as much as your Sony.
    [/quote]

    The "general" gain settings (gleaned from postings on this forum) seem to be:
    Pan : 50 - 80
    Tilt : 150-ish
    Roll : 130-ish.

    You're correct that the values seem to depend on:
    1. The gimbal.
    2. The camera.
    3. The overall mass in motion.
    4. The phase of the moon.
    5. The color of your underwear.
    6. Quantum entanglement and superposition.

    Ok. The last three I made up. At least I think they're made up. ;) We're in bigger trouble than I thought if they really do control the gain settings.


    http://philipbloom.net/2012/09/05/bmd/
    Take care.
    Mark[/quote]

    Thanks for sharing your discoveries -- if your camera op/geek (in the honorable sense of the word geek) cares to share more specifics of what he "got" that would be a good thing for those that read this read in years to come. The Internet Never Forgets!

    Thanks
    Andy.
     
  11. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    I checked out Philip Bloom's video a few days ago. Man as that guy created himself a cottage industry. Here's a guy that started out as a non-professional, he rode the DSLR wave, became and expert when it first started and became the guru for that segment of the video producing population. Smart guy and talented, God bless him.

    The transition from film based production to digital production is kin to the democratization of production. When I started (and I'm not that old) video was for guys that shot news and sports. If you wanted to do narrative film making you had to climb the ladder through the traditional film ranks, meaning, you started as a slave under some ogre and worked your up until you learned the craft or at least able to fool some producer into thinking you really knew what you were doing. (Case with me.) You had to show a producer or director that you had enough talent and ability for them to entrust you with even a low budget film because shooting film costs money. Because of this, there were risks in who you hired as a D.P. because if he fu?!cked up it cost production a pile of money.

    With the advent of the DSLR revolution, it brought the ability to shoot film like images at a fraction of the cost of film based production to the masses. This allowed people with talent to emerge that would never have had a chance working outside of the Hollywood system and this is a good thing. However with all things there is a flip side, it allowed countless people with absolutely no talent to clog up the Vimeo airwaves with a bunch of crap.

    In many ways I envy those that came out during the technological generational change from film to digital. I wish I could have bypassed all the crap I had to put up with to learn my craft. But truth being told, I'm glad that I put up with all the bullshit to learn my craft and if I could go back in time I wouldn't trade it for the world. Maybe I'm just an old fart but there's value in having to climb the ladder and earn the title of D.P. as opposed to buying a Red for 20k and calling yourself a D.P. because you own a camera.

    If you ever want to check out my stuff go to www.mark35mm.com. I haven't updated the site in years because fortunately no one asks for my reel any more.

    Also I had problems with my Cinestar 8, we were getting problems with the number 7 motor so we replaced the BL. Still had problems. Send it back to Germany and it looks like it was a bum power distro board with a short. More money to have it repaired. This thing is worse than my old wooden sailboat that costs me a small fortune. I'm really beginning to wonder if it will ever fly. hahah
     
  12. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I agree with you. My explanation is that technology gives one capabilities, but it does not necessarily give one abilities.
    That is to say, if I put a word processor in front of you, it doesn't make you an author or a journalist -- it merely gives you the capability to become one if you invest the effort and have the talent to acquire the ability.

    Similarly, if I give you a DSLR that can shoot video, that gives you the capability to be a shooter or a DP, but by no means does it give you ability to be one -- that (usually) is a learned skill. There are some who seem to have more innate abilities than others, but I'm not fortunate to be one of them thar folk.

    The good news is that the quality of the final product is the ultimate determinant in whether one is a shooter or a DP.
    Put another way, there is a saying that goes "give 30 million monkeys typewriters and ultimately they'll type out the works of Shakespeare." This is know as the Infinite Monkey Theorem.

    However as one wag observed: This has recently been proven wrong. By the Internet. ;)

    As to the BL-Ctrl, sorry to hear about that. The more advanced the technology, the more it is likely to fail.

    Two theorems also apply here:

    1. As I wrote elsewhere, an aircraft is a hole in the sky into which you pour money (as has been said of boats, but they're just a hole in the water).

    2. As this is a family forum, I shall merely provide this link to a well known epithet that is, in my personal experience, certainly applicable to aircraft and boats. Warning: Grown-up words appear on that link. Do not follow that link if you are under 18, faint-hearted, have an unreliable cardiac pacemaker, or own lots of boats and aircraft. You have been warned. You mileage and cash requirements may vary. Void where prohibited by law. etc. etc. :)

    But the truth of what you say is undeniable.
    Andy.
     
  13. Joe Azzarelli

    Joe Azzarelli Active Member

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    Hang in there, Mark. More interesting days are coming. Like having to hire an electrical repair bucket truck to retrieve your cinestar out of a tree. Like the cinestar coming in contact with the ground at a speed not envisioned by its inventors. Its a journey, enjoy!

    Joe
     
  14. Mark Melville

    Mark Melville Member

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    Hey Andy,

    Yes the Infinite Monkey Theorum!!! One my personal favorites. I can assure you that it is indeed true the evidence being some the awful movies I've shot!!! I guess if you pay peanuts monkeys show up with word processors.

    Quick question. I've assembled the airframe and gimbal. Balanced it out, then set it up over 2 chairs so the gimbal hangs down between the chairs. I have the gain set to 45 and slew at 60. I have a feeling the heavier ur camera is the more you can raise the gain. I have a little canon hd on there for testing and if I go ver 55 it oscillates. If it was heavier it would have more mass and inertia and benefit from higher gain. Or so I think... These settings seem to be pretty smoooth at least on the ground.

    I've noticed when the gimbal is stationary that the pan drifts slowly counter clock wise. Any ideas on how to correct this?

    Thx,

    Mark
     
  15. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Mark:
    I think you're right regarding the peanuts. (Not to be confused with "peanuts envy...." <evil grin>)

    Regarding your question: I also think you're right regarding gain: it's all about the mass-in-motion, I think and the resonant frequency of the entire gimbal assembly. It's a bit of a pain if you swap cameras like I do, because it means reprogramming the pan Radian sensor depending on the camera you're flying.

    Yeah, several folks have seen the "slow pan drift" phenomenon. I'm not sure it's really a problem -- I noticed it when the C8 is dangle mode, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in flight. Perhaps JohnC can comment on this when he sees this thread.

    Andy.
     
  16. Pricop Iulian

    Pricop Iulian New Member

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    Hi Guys, I managed to buy a Graupern 16 is amazingly elegant in our country uses less. I have a hexa copter, controlling nose and I wish I set this station, there are about a year old and not so responsive. Or if someone has the file asi I could set it up in about thanks are with you.
     
  17. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Pricop:
    Just to confirm: you are asking about an MX-16? (There is also a GR-16 Receiver).

    Can you confirm also that you have downloaded the programming manual that you will find on this web page:
    http://www.graupner.de/en/products/...fadcdda2afa9/33116/product.aspx?tab=downloads

    You may also want to upgrade the firmware to the latest version (there are videos on how to do this on this same page, as well as the actual firmware).

    I do not know whether there are any forum members who use the MX-16.

    Andy.
     
  18. Pricop Iulian

    Pricop Iulian New Member

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    It would have been helpful in the beginning and I ese are hardly seem light settings even if the manual
     
  19. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I'm sorry, Pricop, but I do not understand your last post. Please tell me what your preferred language is (I suspect it might be Romanian), and then write your response in that language and I will use Google translate.

    Also, please remember that this is a Freefly Systems forum -- we'll certainly try and help you with Graupner products, but those are not products that Freefly sells.

    ---
    Îmi pare rău, Pricop, dar eu nu înțeleg ultimul tau post. Te rog, spune-mi ce limba preferată este (bănuiesc că ar putea fi român), și apoi scrie răspunsul în limba și voi folosi Google traduce.

    De asemenea, vă rugăm să rețineți că acest lucru este un forum Sisteme de Freefly - vom încerca cu siguranță și să vă ajute cu produse Graupner, dar cei care nu sunt produse care vinde Freefly.

    Andy.

     
  20. Pricop Iulian

    Pricop Iulian New Member

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    Multumesc, vroiam ajutorul unui om care foloseste Graupner MX 16, folosind Controlarul NAZA DJI. Eu am un hexacopter si cum spuneam vroiam setarile sa fie trimise intr-un fisier pe adresa pricop1960@gmail.com .
    va multumesc dragi prieteni.
     

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