Question for Freefly re the MCR & the new iPhone 11

Discussion in 'Movi Technical' started by Rorick Edge, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Kevin P Riley

    Kevin P Riley Active Member

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    I wonder if the lens sticks further out?
     
  2. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Given what these tests are showing, it looks like the Pro Max, due to its longer length, is the only version of the phone that can use the whole of the cradle when the 13mm lens is in use. It is highly unlikely that an owner of an 11 Pro will purchase a Movi unless it is redesigned. Won’t know for sure about the standard 11 until someone tries it, but it is probably also problematic.

    I think that a redesign, to be successful, would have to work with all three versions of the phone without the need to use counterweights for the 13mm lens.

    It would be nice if Freefly would tell us what it plans to do about the problem and what, if anything, it is prepared to do for current Movi owners.
     
    #22 Rorick Edge, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  3. Kevin P Riley

    Kevin P Riley Active Member

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    i think Jon Chu had the perfect, simplest idea, we just need an oversized case (preferably weighed in the empty space. That puts the 11pro further out, but gives the clamp something to grab onto.
     
  4. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    That might work for current Movi owners, but nobody is going to pay $360 for a gimbal and counterweights that requires that kind of kludge to make it work. At this point, I don’t believe that there is a market for the MCR unless it is redesigned.
     
  5. Kevin P Riley

    Kevin P Riley Active Member

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    I agree, but I am being selfish and I am a current Movi and counterweight owner.
     
  6. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Yes, I can make the 11 Pro Max fit the cradle properly and work with counterweights. If you’re a current MCR owner without counterweights, you have to purchase them, and if you own an 11 Pro, and likely an 11 standard, you also need a kludge to fit the cradle properly.

    Meanwhile, it’s 12 days from the iPhone 11 launch and not a single word about this from Freefly. I’m not impressed.
     
    #26 Rorick Edge, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  7. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Just guessing, but maybe one reason that the 11 Pro has to be that much further to the left is that the Pro Max is 6.4mm (0.25”) wider (taller in the cradle).
     
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  8. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    This simplest solution for you might be to pay another $100 for the Pro Max.
     
  9. Kevin P Riley

    Kevin P Riley Active Member

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    I thought of it, but if I’m spending 100 bucks....I’m just gonna get the osmo mobile 3 for 20 dollars more. I don’t sacrifice my comfort by getting a phone that is bigger than I want and I can use it the way I want. I may make something to insert the phone into that will work.
     
  10. Stephen Hart

    Stephen Hart Active Member

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    "Given that the 11 Pro Max is only 14mm (0.55”) longer than the 11 Pro, I don’t understand why you have to be that far from the righthand edge of the cradle. Odd."
    I'll double check this.

    Later:
    So I set up the iPhone 11 Pro in the Movi with the power off and balanced it. Then I slid the phone to the left until the motor was just out of view, and I measure about 1⅞ inches change to the left. I don't know why that'd be so different for the 11 Pro Max.

    On seeing this again, the phone does look a bit precarious, so some kind of extension to the clamp would be good.
     
    #30 Stephen Hart, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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  11. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    I did some more experimenting with the 11 Pro Max and the 13mm lens. With the right edge of the phone aligned with the right edge of the cradle, playback of recorded video shows that I occasionally, but not throughout, catch a bit of the Movi. I have to figure out what is causing this. If I move the phone slightly to the left of the cradle edge (about 6mm or 1/4”), I seem to be clear of the Movi all the time. This is minor enough that I’m not concerned about whether the phone is secure.

    However, I’m beginning to wonder whether properly weighted cases for the phones, designed specifically to address this problem, might be the best solution.* Ideally, there would be a different case for each phone, taking into account their different dimensions and weights. This could make normal, secure placement in the cradle possible and make the counterweight assembly unnecessary.

    * I’m obliged to John Chu for this idea, which he touched on in another thread yesterday: https://forum.freeflysystems.com/in...nd-mobile-film-making.13279/page-3#post-88991
     
    #31 Rorick Edge, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  12. Jason Fish

    Jason Fish New Member

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    Yes. 2x-in is one lens, 0x is another lens, 2x-out is a third lens. Three fixed points. Any zoom level between the physical FOV of any of those lenses is digital zoom-n-crop. That's not to say that the digital zoom isn't very good, it certainly could be, but going from 0.5 to 2x is not a purely optical endeavor.
     
  13. Stephen Hart

    Stephen Hart Active Member

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    I understand that there are three distinct cameras. Also that at least two are functioning at the same time. I suspect someone will soon dig into the hardware and software details and explain what Apple means by:

    "iPhone 11 Pro lets you zoom from the Telephoto all the way out to the new Ultra Wide camera, for an impressive 4x optical zoom range."
    "2x optical zoom in, 2x optical zoom out; digital zoom up to 10x"

    Traditionally a digital zoom means merely cropping the image and then making it look larger.
     
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  14. Kevin P Riley

    Kevin P Riley Active Member

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    ultra wide = 13mm
    Wide lens = 26mm
    Telle = 52

    13 x 4 = 52

    all lenses are optical, from ultra wide to telephoto is 4X optical zoom.

    as you pointed out anything in between would be digital zoom as these are 3 prime lenses.
     
  15. Stephen Hart

    Stephen Hart Active Member

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    "Interesting that you didn’t notice jitter with the 13mm. This suggests that the lens is so wide that jitter isn’t very noticeable."

    Here's a comment from the Halide Blog. (Halide is a well-respected still photo app.)

    It also lacks OIS (Optical Image Stabilization), though ultra wides fortunately suffer far less from errant camera movement because of their large field of view.


    https://blog.halide.cam/iphone-11-pro-preview-the-camera-hardware-changes-16a543b77c24
     
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  16. Stephen Hart

    Stephen Hart Active Member

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    Here's more on how Apple seems to be able to claim optical zoom:

    "The phone can also capture both of the displayed images at once. In addition to allowing you to choose between them later, it also allows for additional post-processing flexibility. For example, it is possible to re-frame an image to include areas that were not originally in the main frame when captured.
    Additionally, the phone needs to correct the distortion of the ultra-wide lens, and to adjust the sharpness of the ultra-wide image to match that of the standard lens. Color may also not be a perfect match between the cameras, and may be one reason the preview area is displayed with a dark overlay—to make any mis-match a little less obvious.
    A couple of additional complexities show room for improvement. The two cameras in use may each show a different depth of field because of their different focal lengths, and parallax issues are still sometimes visible, as each camera views the image from a slightly different angle. Apple is mitigating this effect during processing, but the system is not quite perfect yet."

    https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-11-pro-exploring-the-new-camera-features-2/




    "For example, when shooting video, you can zoom in and out while shooting, and when you cross the 1x and 2x zoom thresholds, the camera system will automatically switch lenses on the fly. So far as I can see, there is no discernable sign of this in the resulting video. So using the iPhone 11 Pro, you can start filming using the ultra-wide lens at 0.5x, then zoom in and when you reach 1x, the camera system will switch to the regular wide lens. Keep zooming in and when you reach 2x it will switch to the telephoto lens. There’s no hiccup in the footage, and no difference in lighting or color. This works for 720p and 1080p at frame rates up to 60 FPS, and for 4K at 24 and 30 FPS. The exception is 4K 60 FPS — when shooting 4K 60 FPS, once you start recording, you’re stuck with the lens you started with."

    https://daringfireball.net/2019/09/the_iphone_11_and_iphones_11_pro
     
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  17. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Hi Stephen, thanks for these links. I have time to figure out the cameras tomorrow and these links will be helpful. I’ll probably start by reading John Gruber’s piece.
     
  18. Stephen Hart

    Stephen Hart Active Member

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    That wasn't me, that was Jason Fish.

    Traditionally, digital zoom means cropping and then enlarging an image, so the result, while a certain measured size, has many fewer pixels per inch.

    What I've read tells me that is not what Apple is doing here.
     
  19. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Matteo Bertoli, a professional cinematographer who sometimes makes iPhone videos, as uploaded one from Sequoia National Park using the iPhone 11 Pro Max. He made liberal use of the 13mm, which he likes precisely because it isn’t as sharp as the 26mm and 52mm lenses. He thinks that gimbals are no longer necessary and he shot all of this handheld, using a basic phone grip (Shoulderpod). His comments in the description about the cameras are well worth reading.

     
    #39 Rorick Edge, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  20. Stephen Hart

    Stephen Hart Active Member

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    I'm hard pressed to see what "not as sharp" means here, at least from my tests. I don't see any added blur or smear at the pixel level, in stills at least. In video, you'd have to save a frame and then look at the pixel level.
    But then, I'm no professional, so maybe I just don't know what to look for.

    But any very wide angle shot will look less detailed because the details are all so much smaller.
     

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