New KDE Direct multi-rotor brushless motors

Discussion in 'Cinestar 8' started by Ozkan Erden, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    Do you have a link for the settings changes from Holger?
     
  2. Ashley Fairfield

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  3. Ashley Fairfield

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  4. Zubeyir Mentese

    Zubeyir Mentese New Member

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  5. Bryan Harvey

    Bryan Harvey Member

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    I bought the KDE XF 4014 and we bench tested them against the T-motor 4014. Yes, there are many ways to test motors (as Patrick from KDE wrote back to me), but this was a direct comparison and these were our results.

    The KDE XF 4014 tested slightly more efficient than the T-motor 4014, but had less power.

    KDE's published specs show that they had more thrust than even the T-motor U7 which is why I went ahead and bought them in the first place for my new RED carrying HL build - that and the fact that U7's are nowhere to be found. I have jobs coming up, so I went ahead with the build, even though I was disappointed in the KDE test results. My machine will be complete any day now, so I will soon be able to provide real world feedback on them.

    I do think the U7's in comparison are unnecessarily heavy. I think on an X8 you end up carrying almost 2 pounds more weight than a 4014 class motor. Then the U7's require more batteries to get equal flight time, so it's the law of diminishing returns. Everyone is trying to zero-in on the sweet spot between weight, thrust, flight time, etc...

    One thing I have learned for certain, at least for the aerial film work that I do, is that 10 minutes of flight time is about all I want. After that I WANT to land and reset. You can only plot out so many shots before you need to rethink, discuss better options, move locations, redirect your talent etc...

    The other thing I have to consider is how many batteries I can feasibly travel with on an airline to get to my shoots. If you need to carry 20,000mah per flight to get 10 minutes out of your overweight HL machine, then that becomes a real battery management problem.
     
    Howard Dapp and Michael McVay like this.
  6. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    Great feedback Bryan.

    I also ordered KDE 4014XF, will be able to compare it to Avroto 3520 400KV motors, which are almost at the same class in terms of lifting capacity. Personally, I'm not expecting miracles from this little motor; I just want some better efficiency for better flight times, thats all.
     
  7. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    Bryan, have you considered the U5?
     
  8. Tristan Twisselman

    Tristan Twisselman Active Member

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  9. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    What size props did you use when you tested the KDE 4014's?
     
  10. Bryan Harvey

    Bryan Harvey Member

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    Dave,
    We bench tested with Xoar 17x5 and built the Gryphon X8 with the KDE4014's and the 17 Xoars, which I have been flying every day. I was bummed that the KDE had less power than the T-motor 4014, but I did not have time to send back another set of motors and wait for U5's. I had already been through a round of testing with U7 490kv and had very bad luck with those. Don't know if it was a bad batch, or just that the 490kv are weird but we tested across both hobbywing and castle creation 75a ESC's and the ESC's were getting way too hot. Now I have a set of the U7 420kv and I know that many people here have had good luck with those. I'm building a set of Gryphon arms with the U7 to swap out for heavy loads. Was hoping the KDE's would do it, but they struggle over 28lbs. I'm ordering some 18" props and expect some gains, but not enough to do what I really want it to do.
     
  11. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Bryan did you fly the KDE 4014's with 17" props? They should have burried the Tiger 4014's in performance? If you flew the KDE motors at what weight did you fly and where was the hover throttle?
     
  12. Bryan Harvey

    Bryan Harvey Member

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    Hi Dave,
    Do you have the KDE 4014 and are experiencing different results, or are you basing your assumption on the published KDE specs?

    Below is my reply to you on another board from a few weeks ago that answers most of your questions. Throttle hover at 33lbs is around 72%.





    We have built and tested the KDE 4014XF motors on a Gryphon X8 frame with MoVI MR gimbal at 27lbs and 33lbs.

    specs:
    6S
    Castle Creations Edge Light 75A ESC's
    Xoar 17x5 props
    DJI A2 controller

    Based on KDE printed specs I was excited to test them as an alternative to the U7. But during bench testing we found the KDE motors had slightly more efficiency, but even less power than the Tmotor 4014, (similar in class to the U5).
    As there were no U7's available during this time, we went ahead with the build, hoping they would work for a RED payload.

    Testing:
    Carrying 20,000mah at 27lbs AUW, flight time was 12-13 minutes and the craft flew very nicely. Great for DSLR sized loads.
    At 33lbs. AUW (this is what it would be with a RED) flight time was 9 minutes, but yaw stability was compromised because the motors were operating near their limit. Any aggressive throttle inputs yielded adverse yaw effects.

    Motors and ESC's only slightly warm after all test flights.

    Now we are thinking about just getting an extra set of Gryphon folding boom arms and building them up with the U7 420 motors. We are using bullet connectors at the fold. We could switch arms depending on the load.
     
  13. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

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    Bryan, I’m curious what batteries you’re using for these tests (and in general). Personally, I’m starting to see some anomalous flight performance (especially around power levels) and I believe it’s the batteries I’m using.
     
  14. Bryan Harvey

    Bryan Harvey Member

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    I'm using brand new 6S Turnigy 5.0 40-50C batteries, same for all comparison flights between the different motors.
    We have a Tarot X8 with the T-motor 4014 and a Gryphon X8 with the KDE 4014, both flying daily. The Tarot has more power at the same weight. A minor difference is the Tarot has 65A Maytech ESC's and the Gryphon has 75A CC Edge light ESC's.
     
  15. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

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    Bryan, that’s somewhat surprising, as a lot of folks flying big loads are going for 10A or larger batteries (in parallel!). Are you flying with 2 or 4 batteries? And what kind of flight times are you getting with your batteries in your testing? Thank you!
     
  16. Bryan Harvey

    Bryan Harvey Member

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    Steve, look back at my post above (4 bars back) regarding flight times, batteries etc...
    With heavier loads I fly with four 5,000mah packs to get the 20,000 most people are flying with.

    I normally travel by air to get to my jobs and the much larger 10,000mah packs are more problematic for travel. As it is flying DSLR sized loads, I must hand carry over 40lbs of lipos onboard in one case. That's 10 flights X 10,000mah plus peripheral batts. Even though its same total number of milliamps as, I think the smaller batteries are slightly less suspicious to fly with! ;)

    In addition to the info from my earlier post regarding flight times, I will add that my Gryphon X8 carrying MoVIMR, 5dmarkII, and 10,000mah AUW is about 21lbs and I'm getting 9 minutes of flight time. Not bad. But for RED camera-sized loads and air travel with batts, imagine doubling the number of batteries you must travel with. Only way is to divide between 2 traveling people, but many of my jobs only have budget for one. It's a dilemma. So far I've had a few close calls getting stopped traveling with the lipos, but I've always made it. I've looked into shipping ahead, but it does not seem viable. Funny because Hobbyking does it all day long.

    If there's any traveling Heavy lifters on this board, I'd love to hear how you get your lipos to your locations.



     
  17. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    I can provide a similar experience about KDE 4014XF like Bryan. With 16" props, Tiger MN4014-400 has more lifting power. KDE 4014XF is slightly more efficient. I didn't get anywhere near %20 more efficiency as stated on KDE's web site.

    On an X8 setup, there is no way to lift RED size camera comfortably with 16" props. On a flat octo the props should be 17", on X8 it should be 18". I'm lifting 5D Mark III with 16x5.4" props around %60 hover gas. AUW is around 24 lbs.

    For those who want to lift Epic with KDE 4014XF, I would recommend to use 18" props. I didn't experience any stability problem with 18" props and heavier payloads. I'm using MK electronics.

    KDE 3520XF might be a better choice for very heavy lifting.
     
  18. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Bryan that sounds about right for 17 inch props. 17 inch props give you about 11220 grams of thrust if you factor in 15% inefficiency for the x8. It would probably be hovering at 50% throttle with 24.7 pounds. So if you put 27 pounds to it that combination would probably be hovering around 60-62%. Now add another 5 pounds and your hover throttle would probably be around 75%.

    To give you a good idea how much difference 18 inch props would be if you take the same combination and switched to 18 inch props you would be able to hover the same throttle with 4 more pounds of weight at 50% throttle. Because the thrust jumps up a lot around 62% you would probably be able to add about 5-6 pounds rather comfortably.

    I am in the process of building a X8 with the 4014's with 18 inch props. My current GAW with the RED camera is 25.5 pounds. I was thinking of upgrading batteries for more flight time. Currently I am flying 2 10,000mah batteries at the 25.5 pounds, and I was thinking of 2 16,000 mah batteries for increased flight time but it would put me around the 30 pound range which might not yield the results I'm looking for.
     
  19. Tim Sessler

    Tim Sessler Active Member

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    Has anybody compared the flight behavior between 17" and 18" props with the 4014 on a X8? I'd be curious to see how they perform. I just ordered a set of 17" but was wondering if I maybe should have gone with the 18" for my 27lbs X8.

    So far I was only able to test the KDE 4014s with 15" Xoar and Tmotor CF props and the result was pretty devastating. At a AUW of 25lbs the hover throttle was extremely high (above 70%) and even at 100% throttle it would only very slowly ascend. Definitely not the right combo. I didn't expect any wonders from the small 15" props with those comparably low KV motors - but was surprised that they had so much less power than the Tmotor 4012-09s.
     
  20. Tristan Twisselman

    Tristan Twisselman Active Member

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    There are so many different variables I think in the end you have to balance performance and efficiency and chose your motor prop and battery depending on payload. Seems the kde motor needs 18" props to perform how people are expecting. Personally I think I am going to run the u7 because of this.
     

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