Need Help twitch and drift with Mimic on Jib

Discussion in 'MōVI Pro' started by Ryan Forte, May 14, 2017.

  1. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    Hey guys looking for some answers that might not exist.

    Has anyone used the mimic on a tripod with the movi fixed.

    Things work pretty well for a minute and then mid pan or tilt I experience twitching and a very small drift after some time.

    I have already sent my Movi into freefly repair and they confirm the issue is fixed could their be an issue with just the mimic.

    I don't experience these problems when I use the game pad to control the problem disappears the reason I don't use it is because I can't turn the sensitivity down lower than 20% and the pans and tilt are too drastic. And it's hard to be accurate with slow moves.

    Any recommendations what to do to fix the problem?
     
  2. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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  3. Graham Futerfas

    Graham Futerfas Well-Known Member

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    Does it help if you back your Mimic further away from the Movi? I see you have your antenna off already, which is recommended in close proximity. You could also try different channels and see if that helps.

    This has been a problem that others have noted here, and Freefly had a fix for, but I think you had to send it in. Sounds like you already did that, so I'd keep documenting it with video and talk with Support.
     
  4. Graham Futerfas

    Graham Futerfas Well-Known Member

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    Oh, and the drifting will be there with the Mimic regardless. It's an unfortunate part of it, but if you can keep the Movi and the Mimic as still as possible when they boot up, it will reduce the drifting.
     
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  5. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    I'll give it a try tomorrow morning. I know I tried with antenna on and off.

    I will say that I'm using a 135mm Cooke S4I with a red Epic W in 4K a 2x crop I believe which makes stabilizing much more difficult, but it's balanced to the T with Counterweights from Cinemilled.

    I know this was a consistent problem have you ever used your mimic on a tripod like so?
     
  6. Graham Futerfas

    Graham Futerfas Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's how I normally set up the Mimic, on a tripod, and I get great results. I only notice some twitching occasionally if I go handheld with the Mimic. I also try to put at least 10-15 feet between the Mimic and the Movi.

    You could look at your Charts in the app to see what may be going on.
     
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  7. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    Great idea really appreciate the support! Love this community. I'll try and be farther away tomorrow and see if that solves my problem.
     
  8. Graham Futerfas

    Graham Futerfas Well-Known Member

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    One more thought, probably not the cause of your problem, but in your Dual Op settings, are you set to Level Roll or Direct?
     
  9. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    I am currently using Level Roll, but I will try Direct and Majestic Pan and Tilt.

    The twitching isn't non stop just popping up once and a while, but combined with a slight drift it really sucks.
     
  10. Jake Wilganowski

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    turn off gps on the mimic
     
  11. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    GPS has been off since I started.

    I talked with freefly and were not completely sure what's going on.

    My mimic is not letting me update the firmware and something weird is going on. I'll report back after I talk with Bryan from the support team.
     
  12. Deniz Ozgoren

    Deniz Ozgoren Support Mage
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    Drift

    Have you tried Heading Assist?

    With heading assist off, MōVI Pro and MIMIC uses only the IMU, which is normal to see drifts over ~10 minutes period. You can set it to Fixed Mount on MōVI Pro, which will enable referencing the encoder on the pan motor. This is a significant change for drift.

    Other options are GPS and Compass. If you use Compass option, it also adds compass on top of IMU to calculate heading, which should also help a lot with drift. In this mode you need to make sure your compass is calibrated through the app and that the declination value is set for your location (google it: https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag-web/). In your case you can try setting MIMIC to compass (since it doesn't have fixed mount option as it doesn't have a motor).
     
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  13. Gabbo Marvasi

    Gabbo Marvasi New Member

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    Deniz, we have tried all of that and the MōVI still drifts, with Mimic and with Alpha Wheels (Alpha Link S.Bus) mine is a MōVI15, we want to use it as a remote head on Jibs, Dollies, Tripods, and you simply can not do that professionally with this problem. How can I stay on a professional environment with a 135mm on my camera, having drifting problems? Will You guys solve this problem, are you guys working on it? If so when?

    We really really need to have this fixed in order to propose the Movi as a professional remote head on professional sets.

    thanks a lot

    take care
     
  14. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    With an Alexa Mini @ 100mm Lieca Summicron I was able to eliminate drift using the Movi Controller and a Fixed amount Heading Assist for weeks of use on a Jib, Dolly and tripod mounting with the Movi Pro. I can't speak for the M15.
     
  15. Gabbo Marvasi

    Gabbo Marvasi New Member

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    So... do I have to spend another 3500$ in order to solve this problem? Serious ????? Not cool at all Freefly...
     
  16. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    Gabbo Considering that professional remote heads in the past have cost 30 -100K I think you have unreasonable expectations of a handheld/aerial stabilizer you are trying to adapt as a remote head for telephoto focal lengths which is the most difficult thing to do with a gimbal. The fact that we could find a solution to make it work for a feature film set was amazing in itself. Brian at Freefly specifically told me that their 3 axis gimbal was designed for motion not macro telephoto remote head tasks.

    Have you tried using a Varizoom 3 Axis head with servo motors for telephoto work? It's a joke operation is all over the place. You talk about things being professional but you're talking about entry level price points.

    In order to do delicate slow remote operation you're gonna need a sophisticated remote control device that lets you dial in extremely low rate percentages and rely on heading assist to keep the IMU from doing whatever it thinks is right.

    If you want an all in one solution to do what you're doing contact Arri, Shotover, or Walter Klassen and I can almost guarantee you are going to quickly enter that 30-100K pricepoint I'm talking about. I have seen some interesting things from the Ronin 2 but all my experiences with DJI outside of the Inspire series have been great on paper and plagued with bugs and problems while in use not to add that it's almost always 2x the weight.
     
  17. Gabbo Marvasi

    Gabbo Marvasi New Member

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    Well.... I got your point, but I am experiencing A LOT of drifting, so yes, I think I have to forget that I can use it as a remote head for professional work..... that is such a shame since I was wondering of sets where you basically do not have to take the camera out of the gimbal for whatever shot you have to do with it (used handeld, or as a remote head on dollies and cranes or just on tripods)... and my alpha wheels... just lost a lot of interest to me, since are ment to being used for rigouruos movement, and with drifting, we do not have any possibility to be rigorous... Anyway: I do not want to spread rumors but APPARENTLY the XL is having the same problem, there, we are in the 20K pricepoint, and that is ment to be used mainly as a fixed head, and I guess FF will have to do something about it but AGAIN maybe is just a rumor... And if that is just a rumor, and the XL works without any drift, I would like to know why FF can not fix it on the other Movis... I am sure it is technically very complicated but I would like to have an answer from Freefly like: "Drifting is a problem of our system, we tried to fix it with the "fixed mount option"in the app, but it doesn't work, and is just the way it is" or ïn order to solve the drifting you have to buy the Movi Controller", but you know, just some "oficial" answer in order to undestand what I really have to do about it, if I can do something or just forget about it.
     
  18. Graham Futerfas

    Graham Futerfas Well-Known Member

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    Here is an 'official' knowledge base article from Freefly about the drifting:
    https://freeflysystems.zendesk.com/...-Why-is-my-MōVI-Pro-drifting-in-the-pan-axis-

    I use the Movi as a remote head a lot on fairly high end and high paying jobs, and like I said, it doesn't drift in Fixed Mount with the new Alpha Wheels SBUS. At all. It will drift a little with no heading assist, and for some shots, that's the way you need to be set, because Fixed Mount can cause it's own set of problems, depending on what you're doing. With my PLC Wheels, I was able to zero out the drifting.

    Movi will drift a little with the Mimic. If that's your preferred way of working, it's something you're going to have to work with, but I have done plenty of shoots with Mimic and it's not impossible to deal with. I've worked with many operators who loved the Mimic and prefer it to the wheels.

    First, make sure the Movi and camera are really still while you boot up. Same with the Mimic. This will affect how much drifting you get.

    You can turn the Mimic off and point the Movi at the set while lighting or setup is being done, then turn it on when you need to operate the shot. Not that hard, just a little annoying. Use the orientation of the Toad in the Hole and the Smooth Lock feature to lock the Movi off in a specific direction while you set up.

    Use the Pan Adjust button on the Mimic to keep re-orienting, or mount your monitor to your Mimic.

    I would love to see Freefly implement a 'Drift Correction' trim setting in the app... where you could manually trim out the drift by counteracting it. Not sure if that's technically possible.

    There are many professional filmmakers working with the Movi Pro every day, and while it has its limitations and quirks, I don't think it's fair to say it's not a professional-grade product.
     
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  19. Ryan Forte

    Ryan Forte Member

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    I didn't realize that you had the Alpha Wheels with the SBus Link. As Graham mentioned above that he has good results with his Alpha Wheels. I would consider the Alpha Wheels to be a sophisticated remote control system from what I understand you can adjust the rate percentages with the Sbus Link to extremely low near zero for telephoto lenses.

    Give it another try. Do exactly what Graham said keep everything perfectly still upon bootup. Also in my experience when I switch the heading assist "fixed mount" while in use the movi starts spinning around about 90 degrees as if it was going to find the forward point in majestic mode and I will then jerk the joystick (or turn the wheels) left and right to get it back in place and if everything is setup right then it should eliminate drift in operation.

    Graham is using the same equipment as you are so I would listen to what he is saying. I chose the Movi Controller because I had faith that a Freefly made controller would give me complete control over the gimbal and there was a 2 week wait for the Alpha Wheels when BH had a Movi Controller ready to ship next day in the middle of a hectic shoot.

    Don't loose hope yet just don't expect things to work instantly with little to no adjustments and get to learn the quirks about it. Getting things to work for my needs was a good amount of trial and error.
     
  20. Gabbo Marvasi

    Gabbo Marvasi New Member

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    Hi Graham,

    I love the Movi (although I used to love it more be4 I experienced the drifting), I think is a professional handheld gimbal, but I think unfortunately we can say it cannot be used as a professional remote head, and defintely we can say we can not use it as a professional head with mimic.

    Again: this is just a big shame since it would open so many more possibilities....

    so Freefly please! We want so much that drift correction on the App!

    about the wheels:
    this is what the Guys of 1Atools (Alpha Wheels) wrote me about the drifting with their product:
    "When you disconnect the receiver the movi switches into majestic mode. In majestic mode, it uses the pan motor's encoder. It then uses the encoder to sense if it is drifting when the movi is stationary. You can also use the pan encoder's sensor with the alphalink by using heading assist fixed mount as I described aboveboard. Without this heading assist, the movi assumes that you want the control wheels to have absolute control without and totally ignore the direction of the pan encoder. We see this drift to different degrees relatively often. It can become noticeable at longer focal lengths, like a 135mm. The digital orientation information we send to the movi is checked for errors and verified it was received correctly by the movi. We can confirm when we look at the code that the movi thinks it is stationary when it is actually drifting. Rebooting the movi, better balancing, good auto tuning for specific lenses, can all help reduce or eliminate it."
     

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