MOVI thoughts about hardware AND software

Discussion in 'Movi Technical' started by Frank Algermissen, Apr 22, 2018.

  1. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    I think about MOVI and all the 3rd party Applications we use for video. Most of us use FiLMiC Pro. I do the same. But I also use Skyflow - https://goo.gl/vHtaKx - for me THE best App for Timelapse. And since MOMENT announced the Anamorphic Lens we all know about the need of de-squeeze which will automatically be done in THEIR own App updated the following weeks.

    Well, what does that mean? MOVI need his own App when benefit from all the great movements and tracking shots. But how can I de-squeeze the footage when combine MOVI with MOMENT Anamorphic Lens? How can I lock ISO, WB, Shutter, Focus etc. when doing Timelapse? Is everything a question about postpro later on the MAC? Will 3rd party Applications implement the MOVI? Or will the MOVI App implement the needed settings?

    For me it shows that new products for smartphone videography are not simply developing great hardware. It’s a question of hardware AND software which means that companies have to think about BOTH components before. And that they become more and more a software dev. company too which means they need UI/UX knowhow, iOS/Android software coder, mobile strategist and more.

    What do you think about these thoughts? What do you prefer or can recommend?
     
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  2. Darrin Altman

    Darrin Altman Member

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    I completely agree with you Frank. FilmicPro is so important since it allows me to lock the shutter speed, WB and set ISO. FilmicPro also, as you know, allows for setting the maximum bit rate. I think, just my opinion and guess, that FilmicPro would love to be able to work with the Movi, but they would need Freefly to share the software development kit with them. Freefly seems to want to keep that private, my guess again, and Im sure they have good reason.

    I have a DJI Osmo Mobile 1 and 2 and a Zhiyun Crane 2 for my mirrorless Sony but I ordered the Movi because I just have a feeling these guys/gals, meaning Freefly, will dominate. They just seem like they want what we want, which is the best experience. Im going to be patient and see how the app develops over time as well as the accessories. I have to imagine Freefly knows we want/need manual controls, de-squeeze abilities, bit rate controls and other things. This is just the beginning and Im happy to go along for the ride. I would rather everything not be perfect and have it now, if I have confidence that the company is working on it and will update the product, then wait forever for a perfect combo of device and software, which might not be truly possible. Just as an example, I bought a DXO One camera for my iPhone as soon as it was released. Although I don't use it anymore, just use the Moment system, DXO has reinvented that camera at least five times since the release. There has been no version Two. They have just kept improving the software and the abilities of the camera. I have no prior experience with Freefly as a company but my gut tells me they will treat this the same way. Next year we won't see a Movi v2, we'll see upgraded firmware, an updated app and accessories. I hope Im right.

    That being said, I don't have the Movi yet. Cant wait to receive it.
     
  3. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Hi Darrin, well of course this are mostly assumptions. I really hope FF will also check their own forum to get 1:1 user feedback. Very often I miss development along the customer needs and behaviours. Will see how FF will handle this.

    I would be VERY interested about your thoughts then compared to your already existing OSMO and Zhiyun. Let us know. When do you expect your MOVI?
     
  4. Darrin Altman

    Darrin Altman Member

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    No real idea, I was told possibly mid to late May. I can tell you this so far, the lowest price Osmo Mobile 2 is my favorite for now. I find the gimbal movements to be the most fluid and smooth. I also had a Zhiyun Smooth Q. I will for sure give my thoughts comparing the Movi. I anticipate the Movi to win. The others don’t offer a counterweight to balance the phone. There are solutions like Moment’s counterweight 2.0 but they only balance (sorry for lack of proper terminology) the side to side movement, not the back and forth. When I put my iPhone X in the Osmo with just my Moment photo case, no lens, I cannot balance the phone properly. I can get the horizontal balance but the phone flips either face down or face up. Movi’s counterweight takes the horizontal and forward and backwards (wish I knew the proper terminology for this) weight into consideration. I just imagine this improving the use.
     
  5. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Well, the only thing regarding to handling I miss are the possebilities on moving really some centimeter above the ground. In this case the MOVI has some difficulties cause of its construction. OSMO & Co seems to be more handier - see picture below

    Bildschirmfoto 2018-04-27 um 12.49.56.jpg
     
  6. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Frank:
    It may not be the best solution (because the UI is inverted), but you can easily operate the Movi as shown below and get the camera way lower than the Osmo -- I estimate that with the iPhone X in an Otterbox case, the lens can get down to 2 cm from the ground:

    (Click on thumbnail to enlarge)
    Movi CR operating inverted 2018-04-27 09.07.41.jpg

    So you set up the shot, the modes, etc. with the Movi right side up, then just rotate the handle around.
    That might do what you want (apart from the UI being inverted). Just based on my experience it's not too hard to operate the UI inverted once you're familiar with it being right side up.

    EDIT: One thing I have not checked is whether the resulting images/video are inverted or right side up -- but even if they are that's an easy fix in post.

    EDIT 2: On the iPhone use iMovie, put two fingers on the screen and rotate the two fingers around to rotate 90 degrees. Repeat to rotate 180 degrees.


    Cheers
    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
  7. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    Hmm, not the most comfortable solution and kinda workaround. Minimum next step should be inverting UI cause its no rocket science to do it. Insta360 has to do it too cause of using the iPhone lightning port for their "ONE" camera for example. Rest can be done in post, yes.

    At the end each device has its advantages and disadvantages. Means try to hold an OSMO with two hands or try to find counterweight which can be finetuned like the FF ones - as examples.
     
  8. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    It is indeed a workaround. I suspect if enough folks want to use it FF will make the UI orientation sensitive so that both the UI and the video will be right-side up.

    I don't find holding the Movi in my left hand that uncomfortable -- mind you, I'm left-handed anyway! :) I'm planning to shoot some low-level shots when next I visit the Pacific Ocean shore line...

    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
  9. Frank Algermissen

    Frank Algermissen Active Member

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    I'm curious about the results :)
     
  10. Patrick McGowan

    Patrick McGowan New Member

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    I think it takes more than great hardware theses days. Freefly put a good hardware product together and a limited free app. Its super important for users to impress upon Freefly the importance of making a full featured app that I for one would be more than willing to pay for. Maybe we should start designing the feature and spec list as users?
     
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  11. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    This user is happy for Freefly to add useful additions to the Movi’s cinema robot functions and, when it comes to camera focus and exposure issues, to make an API available to Filmic Pro, Mavis, etc. Which is precisely what a Freefly rep said yesterday it is doing.

    I sincerely hope that the future direction of the Movi will not be decided by a self-appointed committee of users on this or any other forum.
     
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  12. Patrick McGowan

    Patrick McGowan New Member

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    I think you may have misread what i was saying. users are important resources in terms of spec and feature requests, NOT as managers of a development project!
     
  13. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Speaking merely as a volunteer and not for FF, I have to say that FF certainly appears to make it a priority to listen to user feedback either by postings on this forum or email to support@freeflysystems.com -- and, as you point out, Patrick, FF's own product managers have to make decisions whether or not to incorporate certain features, how, and into which releases. But, heaven forfend, forum users should not feel restricted in any way for expressing their opinions pro or con regarding the features, suggestions, etc. -- no guarantees that FF will be able to implement all the suggestions, but the discussion is certainly welcomed on this forum!

    As to the Movi Cinema Robot app., obviously this is version 1.x of the app. I've met some of the developers at FF and they're a talented, switched-on group. They've done extensive testing of iPhones, Filmic Pro etc. so they're evidently pretty attuned to what's going on. Later versions will undoubted include new capabilities and features. The business decisions I imagine facing FF are what features and what sequence to implement them?

    So keep bouncing those ideas around on the forum please -- but do ponder, for example, if Filmic Pro appears to turn off OIS, how does it stop the lens from bouncing around inside the iPhone? Mmmmm. Not sure it does. So what exactly is Filmic Pro turning off and does the footage look better or worse with it turned off? I'm not being rhetorical here -- I really don't know and I'm curious to learn the answer. I don't think the lens is latched. Does anyone know?

    Cheers
    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
  14. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Sorry, but I disagree that “Its (sic) super important for users to impress upon Freefly the importance of making a full featured app”.

    The fact that Freefly is soon to release iOS and Android APIs that could be used by Filmic Pro, Mavis and others should tell you something about its priorities, which in my view are the correct ones.

    I think that it is perfectly obvious that Freefly is open to suggestions for improvements. That willingness is part of the company’s history. I am rather less interested in “we should start designing the feature and spec list as users” for a “full featured app” that is allegedly important to users and would make the API route irrelevant.

    In fact, Patrick's post does not include a single specific proposal.
     
    #14 Rorick Edge, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  15. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Andy, does Filmic Pro claim that it turns off iPhone optical image stabilisation? If so, do you know where it makes that claim?

    There’s lots of talk about this, but I’ve yet to see evidence that Filmic Pro makes the claim, let alone that it works.

    There’s another approach, which is to avoid shot composition where it becomes an issue.
     
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  16. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Rorick: What I found was the description in the Filmic Pro v6 documentation at page 35, that shows this:

    Filmic Pro Manual page 35.png

    The PDF of the manual is here.

    The diagram is what got me thinking -- if you turn off software IS, what prevents the lens from bouncing around?

    I agree -- bypassing an issue beats having to work around it!

    Cheers
    Andy

    Forensic Software & sUAV / Drone Analyst : Photographer : Videographer : Pilot (Portland, Oregon, USA): Trees=2, Ground=1, Props=11. :(
    The Ground Is The Limit™
    ---------- Forensic Drone Analyst : Forensic sUAV Analyst : Forensic Unmanned Aircraft Analyst : Forensic Drone Expert
     
  17. Alessandro Garabaghi

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    With all the money i have spend on iphone gimbals so far i can say the hardware with the movi is the best. at the end of the day none of the gimbals have the best software from the lack of res to lack of lens selection to ois on off they all miss something.

    I have a wish list of things i want to see with the movi, but so far its ahead of the competition. Its almost proving to be useful on the boat which is why the rest really lacked the strenght. Im hoping i can do some manual tuning and get it steady.

    I think our best bet would be if filmic could add a hardware link the movi like the osmo

    I also wish the buttons on the movi were a bit more customization. There is no need for a dedicarted button to open the gallery?

    The trigger should be a lot more like the one on the osmo also
     
  18. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    Andy, I'm aware of that Filmic Pro page. Note that it does not say that Filmic Pro turns off optical as distinct from digital stabilisation, and that Filmic Pro has been distinctly obtuse about this whole issue.

    Personally, I was struck by the statement by a representative of Freefly in yesterday's video on balancing the Movi that he thinks that Apple and other smartphone makers will abandon optical image stabilization. That was an interesting comment, and I wish that he had elaborated. See the 11:42 mark (and 09:12 re the iOS and Android APIs):

     
    #18 Rorick Edge, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  19. Rorick Edge

    Rorick Edge Active Member

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    The whole point of the Movi API is that Filmic Pro and others will be able to integrate Movi into their apps. If you want to see it happen, write to Filmic Pro (or Mavis, etc).
     
  20. Alessandro Garabaghi

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    Was not aware they have made that public?
     

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