M10 inverted and Alta

Discussion in 'ALTA' started by Jeff Camden, Sep 7, 2015.

  1. Jeff Camden

    Jeff Camden New Member

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    Hi,
    Just wondering if anyone can shed some tech light on why the M10 can't be inverted on the Alta? Is there a work around, updates or possibility that this will ever change?
    Thanks for any info.
    Cheers
     
  2. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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  3. Rolf Ableiter

    Rolf Ableiter Active Member

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    the M10 has a single carbon boom for the PAN axis and it is dangerous to use it upsidedown with the ALTA.
    may it will work with a light setup (GH4, etc)... but still dangerous.
    my ALTA should arrive in the next days and i will try to build something to make it possible...
    i think it would be possible for freefly to build an update for us M10 users. Just remember: many of us paid a big price for our M10...
     
    Klaus Friedrich likes this.
  4. Jeff Camden

    Jeff Camden New Member

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    Hey Rolf, thanks for the info, sounds like there could be a work around for a reasonable price, keep me posted on how you go if you don't mind. Im still a few weeks off getting my Alta but would love to use heavier equipment than a 5D with the M10 inverted, so Im hoping the is possible.
    Cheers
     
  5. Jeff Camden

    Jeff Camden New Member

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    And Ill get on to support too thanks Gary
     
  6. Jeff Camden

    Jeff Camden New Member

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    So the official answer from support was they do not offer any modification for the M10 nor is it on the horizon. Looks like we will have to save our pennies for the M15.
     
  7. Klaus Friedrich

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    Maybe I am wrong but I would see definitely a need to get an upgrade for the M10 to be top mount compatible with the ALTA. Why? Because the M15 is more heavier than the M10 and weight counts even with the ALTA!
    Just make a small calculation:
    The max. payload for the ALTA is 6.8 kg (15.0 lbs) at see level.
    The M15 weights 2.47kg (5.4 lbs); remains 4.33kg (9.6 lbs) for camera, lens, follow focus, mate box, etc. (at see level!)
    The M10 weights 1.8 kg (3.9 lbs); remains 5kg (11.1 lbs) for camera payload.
    So you have 670g (1.5 lbs) more reserve, which is quite much and which you definitely need when you want to shoot cine productions (RED, Prime lens, etc.) with the ALTA. Even if the modification adds some additional weight to the M10 I am sure it would make sense.

    So in my opinion an upgrade kit for the M10 would be absolutely useful.

    Maybe Freefly could start a poll to see how many M10 users would appreciate/buy such a modification kit.
     
  8. Rolf Ableiter

    Rolf Ableiter Active Member

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    as i built an own gimbal with customade alu and carbon parts (similar to a MoVI but with alexmos) 2 years ago for my own usage i am sure you will loose the weight after an update.
    one will need two carbon booms from the pan axis back and an alu part down to the roll motor wich will be heavier than the solution now.

    May freefly should offer the update to M15 as they did when the price dropped down.

    i will take a closer look to my M10 and think about the parts one would need. may i'll find some more users to compensate the costs of the parts (wich is very expensive and makes no sense for only one M10).
     
  9. Mateusz Hajdziony

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    Rolf, I think that converting the M10 to double boom on yaw is not the entire story. You would still need make sure that the M10 balances perfectly (especially for aerial usage) on the yaw axis and it's impossible to balance it with double yaw boom. If you look at the M15 you will see that it has two batteries (on each side of the yaw booms) to achieve better left-to-right balance on yaw axis. I think that they've also placed the electronics on the back of the M15 very carefully so that it is always balanced.

    I agree that Freely should offer some kind of upgrade for the M10 for it to be able to fly inverted on the ALTA. Inverted mode is so cool and it is a huge advantage over other multirotor platforms, but we M10 users won't be able to take advantage of it in the current state of M10. Which is a bummer considering Freely gimbals are the most expensive on the market. :(
     
  10. Michael Elsegood

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    I feel your pain, I have a small 'fleet' of M10 gimbals that we use on Cinestars that will have to be semi-retired for ALTA use once directors/DPs come to expect the 'top mount' shots.

    A tough pill to swallow, as I too, paid the 'Original Price' for our MoVI M10/MR units. :(
     
  11. Dimitar Krustev

    Dimitar Krustev New Member

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    POSSIBE M10 MOD FOR INVERTED USE ON FF ALTA

    Hello guys. I am in the same place like you - ALTA and MoVI M10 + big need to go inverted. I would like to share an idea of mine with you of M10 mod. It would be nice for all of us to be able to use our M10s top mounted on ALTA. Until now all my researches shows that the problems of the inverted M10 on a places with high G forces are :
    1) big possibility of slipping sideways around PAN tube
    2) possibility of breaking the PAN tube
    (please correct me if I am wrong)

    My possible solutions are :
    1) adding 4 more elements to prevent from side sliping ( pictures below). These are not scale or realistic drawings, I have made them only to share my idea. We are still going to have the options for linear and angled PAN balance with these additional elements and I hope enough friction to avoid sliping.

    2) PAN tube on M10 is 25mm outter by 21 inner diameter. Epoxy gluing additional inner tube with size of 21 outter by 19 inner diameter will make the total thickness of the boom of 3 mm which will be enough for the max weight M10 can take care of. And finaly my rough guess about the weight of the mod is somewhere around 50-70 grams

    Thease are all only on drawings for now. I will be very happy if we can design it better together and make some real life test. Please share your ideas and opinions about top mounted M10 mods.

    Wish you happy holidays and many successful flights
     

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  12. Jeff Camden

    Jeff Camden New Member

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    Hey Dimitar,
    Love the thought and start of develovopment. My critical question would be how will a second clamp stop the slipping problem, either need a screw/bolt to go through the pan tube or a keyed tube like on the M5. Unless I'm looking at the pics wrong, if so can you explain?
    Thanks
     
  13. Dimitar Krustev

    Dimitar Krustev New Member

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    Hey Jeff,
    I think friction. If the second (additional) clamp is with big contact surface the friction between it and the pan tube will be probably enough to prevent from sliping. I will make a stand test with lever equal to the length of the vertical boom and weight to check if it is going to slip. That would tell us a lot. I was thinking for a keyed PAN tube like on M5 but that means to use alumuminum and to remake the pan to vertical tubes attachment, which will make it heavier. I will be flying mostly with Blackmagic 4K but still less weight better performance and reliability. I have actualy another idea, I will ilustrate it later and post it here.
    Happy new year
     
  14. Paul Christopher Greene

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    Great idea...please keep us updated especially if you can meet max 12 pound M10 payload as we run heavy rigs.

    Thank you,
     
  15. Dimitar Krustev

    Dimitar Krustev New Member

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    That is the second idea I have. It will work, but also will be heavier and harder to build. Basicly is this :
    - Aluminum ,notched cap inserted in the PAN tube. Mounted with 3-M3 screws trough the carbon tube
    - On back of the cap is the detail which holds the rails and it is also notched to prevent sliping. This one have lever M4 bolt to tight it.
    These two can rotate to provide angled balance of the pan when loosing the bolt
    - The rails are attached to an additional 25mm clamp to the vertical tube. The provide balancing the pan axis linear movement. I am not sure about the rail length, because when it is closer to the motor, probably it will want to bend if much force applied

    The ilustrations I have made are not in scale or proper dimensions. Just visualisations to be easier to discuss the design. I am sure that together we can make it work.
    I am sorry for my bad English. If it is hard to understand something please ask
     

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    Aj White and Ozkan Erden like this.
  16. Rolf Ableiter

    Rolf Ableiter Active Member

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    i don't think that this will work. even if this will help to hold the movi a bit better you still have only one boom holded with two plastic clamps in the middle (at the pan motor). But i even don't think that the small and thin carbon parts are tough enough to hold the gimbal.
    it would be better to update to two booms but this will eleminate the ability to balance left/right in the pan axis.
     
  17. Dimitar Krustev

    Dimitar Krustev New Member

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    Hey Rolf, you are totaly right. I haven't thought about the center attachment (at the pan motor). Thanks for pointing there. For sure this is the most stressed and weak point on the Movi M10. We have to make modifications there too. Thanks again
     
  18. Stefan Helborg

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  19. Mark Hoffman

    Mark Hoffman Active Member

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    As some one who uses an M10 on the TERO I can tell you that on occasion the pan down tube can slip and the gimbal will fall to one side. Not really a big deal on the TERO but on the ALTA I'm guessing that could mean striking one of the props which would more than likely end in a crash.
     
  20. Thijm le Grand

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    Did this upgrade for a friend. He also wanted the top mount option.
    DXF files added and other parts can be found online.
    Did not cut any cables. So pan needs counter weight (Battery) or modified cables.
     

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