Insurance

Discussion in 'CineStar FAQ - Tips and Tricks' started by Jon Fredericks, Oct 29, 2012.

  1. Jon Fredericks

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    Hi all, just thought I'd start a thread on insurance policies. We are currently on Aerial Pack from Seneca, but they don't provide hull coverage (although they used to). In shopping around, Pegasus provides hull but they don't currently cover the Cinestar series. Would love to know what others are using out there, good experiences and bad.

    Thanks,
    Jon
     
  2. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Andre Monette of Aerial Pak literally said to me: "Our policy ceases the moment the aircraft leaves the ground." Thus Aerial Pack is really Ground Pack. This is at odds the stated coverage at http://aerialpak.com/.

    Please let me know if what I heard him say is inaccurate. I was lightly stunned by it, so I wrote it down just after he said it.

    I don't know of anyone who is writing hull coverage. I gather that the type of coverage is called General Liability with Inland Marine rider.

    Interested to hear if anyone has any insurance for General Liability and/or Hull for commercial operations.

    Andy.
     
  3. Jon Fredericks

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    Interesting.....he assures us that we are covered for flight liabilty. I might have another look at our policy....

    I have seen some operators advertise that they have total coverage; would like to know where from? Surely the insurance cos. will be scrambling in the next couple years to get products in place for all UAS's, as the FAA determines our future, which is good for all of us.
     
  4. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Based on what I heard from others with Aerial Pak coverage, he is no longer writing new policies -- I suspect the burning cost of the coverage was too high.

    I think you're right, Jon -- well, I hope you're right. Once the FAA legitimizes commercial operations, I suspect we'll see coverage even if the premiums are pretty high.

    If you are flying non-commercially, then you can get General Liability coverage from the Academy of Model Aeronautics:
    • Liability Coverage for the Operation of Model Aircraft, Boats, Cars, and Rockets
    • $2,500,000 Comprehensive General Liability Protection for model activities for members, clubs, site owners, and sponsors
    • $25,000 Accident/Medical Coverage for members
    • $10,000 Maximum Accidental Death Coverage for members
    • $1,000 Fire, Theft, and Vandalism Coverage for members
    • Primary Site Owner Insurance ? up to $5,000,000 each location
    See http://www.modelaircraft.org/membership/membership/overview.aspx

    Andy.
     
  5. Philip Ellerbroek

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    Funny, Andere approved me today when I called about the Aerial Pak, however it was pertaining to a policy Imquiry i began investigating in August. And at the time I spoke with him twice in one week and on the 2nd call he told me that earlier that morning he got news that the additional option Of covering gear/cinestar had just gone away.

    Anyway Il be freezing my credit card tomorrow if I call for clarification and he says any claim involving flight is not covered especially liability matters. I won't mention this posting of course.



     
  6. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Please let me know if you do get airborne coverage. I really don't think I am misquoting what he said to me because he said it very clearly and I was so surprised to hear him say it.

    I'm researching one other lead for possible insurance and I'll post any news I get from that if the coverage is appropriate.

    Andy.
     
  7. Jon Fredericks

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    I just spoke with Andre because we had to bump up our coverage. He indicated he is writing about 5 new aerial pak policies per day right now and it has really exploded in the past couple months (go figure). His policy with Seneca does indeed cover flight liability. They still won't provide any equipment coverage whatsoever, but that could be changing next spring if he can convince the underwriters to start writing it again. I imagine it won't be cheap though. The best way to cover your equipment may still be to include in your gen. liability policy for your office/etc.

    I imagine if many folks put enough pressure on our local ins. agents to indicate a demand, at some point (??) there will be more competition for insurance products thus better pricing.
     
  8. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I spoke by phone this morning and I'm in email conversation now with one company that will apparently provide "RC Copter" (his words not mine) coverage. I'm hoping to get a copy of the policy today or tomorrow that will describe what the coverage is. They seem very switched on as far as RC copters are concerned. As an alternative to me posting information, I've sent the link to this thread in the hope that the agent will post directly to the forum.

    Thanks for clarifying Andre Monette's position regarding Aerial Pak. It sounds like he's realizing the increasing demand even if they don't provide hull insurance for the aircraft/equipment in flight.

    I post details as soon as I have them.

    Andy.
     
  9. Jon Fredericks

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    Good to know Andy. Appreciate the legwork. I'll be interested to see what other products are out there.
     
  10. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Think of it as "enlightened self-interest" -- I need to get coverage too! :)

    Andy.
     
  11. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Sigh. Disappointing news, folks. I'm publishing, with the permission of the author, the response I received. I have obliterated a current client's of his name as I have not got permission to publish that:

    From: "Don Pickard" don@tcpinsurance.com

    Hello Andy,

    This is Don C. Pickard at TCP Insurance, Inc. and Rich Gunn from our office sent me a copy of your email.
    To clarify Great American Insurance Co.'s underwriting criteria is that we do not write new business with RC Copters being used for the still shoot. We have a few long time clients who recently purchased and are using these RC devices for shoots, <client name omitted> (as you know) is one of the photographers.

    Are [sic] intent with adding the "Aerial Endorsement" was to protect a handful of current clients that have this exposure and could have been uncovered due to a loss. It was not our intent to provide to new accounts. Unfortunately insurance carriers feel there is potential for catastrophic type losses. i.e. RC Copter that collides with an aircraft, improper training resulting in additional Bodily Injury or Property Damage; not to mention the automatic losses to devices and camera gear.
    I truly appreciate the opportunity to be a potential solution, where there is a need for this product, unfortunately TCP is unable to assist. I wish you all the best and feel free to contact myself or Richard Gunn at anytime.
    Sincerely,
    Don C. Pickard
    There you have it. Let me know if any of you have got RC copter coverage for commercial ops, please.

    Andy
     
  12. Jonathan Lederer

    Jonathan Lederer New Member

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    Just wanted to get some clarification with regards to the above referenced "AMA members insurance coverage". Can someone please confirm whether or not the following statement is true, as it is only what I've heard, but my gut is to believe it:

    In speaking with my brother (a long time AMA member who has at least a 10 year longer membership than do I), the topic of coverage came up at dinner last night and I was told that AMA is only applicable if and only if a pilot is flying at an officially approved flying site...PERIOD. Seems logical, but just wanted some input from others who know more than I.

    Thanks, and safe flying everybody!!
     
  13. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    Does this confirm that AerialPak offer liability coverage for RC craft used for both commercial filming and hobby? Can someone with an actual policy confirm this? Is it in writing on the policy? There must be a distinction between commercial and hobby. I'm not concerned with equipment coverage. Thanks!
     
  14. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I specifically asked the AMA about this and they did not mention it.
    However, the definitive document source is
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Sorry there other files I should have uploaded.

    Let me know what you think regarding your question.

    Andy.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

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    I just called the AMA, and they said they said that they do not provide insurance for commercial activities. It seems AerialPak is the way to go, but there's a bit of a tangled web around requirements, most specifically the fact that if you already have a business (which is insured) that provides photo and/or video services, you need to create another entity (presumably an LLC) to which you must attach the AerialPak policies. I wonder if any/all of this has been tested in real-life circumstances, as it'd be a shame to go through all the legal hoops only to find out that there's some loophole with the legalities where a potential claim would be denied.

    I'm curious if anybody has had to make a claim on an AerialPak policy. Or have had their coverage (either AerialPak or general photo/video insurance) cancelled as a result of a technicality or other reasons.
     
  17. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Apologies if I created the impression that they did -- but you're absolutely right Steve.
    The AMA provide coverage for me because I only donate my time to a non-profit corporation.

    Oh...that's a new one. I wonder why?
    I would have thought that if there was any kind of legal action against the new company it would be easy to show that the new company was just an attempt to shield the parent company -- but I'm not an attorney (nor do I play one on TV).

    I'd be curious to know the answer to that too.

    Andy.
     
  18. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    I find it strange that AerialPak, on several occasions, states that commercial use is not covered due to current FAA rules yet some here say they are covered. Can anyone clarify? Are they accepting $ for policies knowing that the insured will not be covered under commercial use? I don't know.

    This also confuses me, Jon mentions that aerialpak will not cover equipment yet on their website they say "Aircraft and Camera Coverage while on location" confusing.


    APAK.jpg
     
  19. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

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    I'm in the process of setting up an LLC (in order to get insurance), and I'll keep y'all abreast of what I find out. FYI, I do not believe that the gear can be covered.
     
  20. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    For me this pretty much sums it up in regards to AerialPak's coverage for commercial use: http://aerialpak.com/BinaryData/Artifacts/PDFs/FAA_Letter.pdf

    "Furthermore, our decision to continue coverage
    is in no way an endorsement to you or your company to operate illegally."
    -
    "At this time, policy renewals will be issued with no added changes or limitations, but
    could, for obvious reasons, be subjected to your required compliance with the future procedures
    and regulations."

    Basically if you operate illegally (commercially) and have an incident you will not be covered. You're only covered under hobby use yet they offer company policies:confused: If you injure a bystander with your RC craft while working don't count on aerialpak to cover the injured.
     

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