How Stable should the footage be

Discussion in 'ALTA' started by Ricardo Perret, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Ricardo Perret

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    Hello

    I Fly The Alta with the Movi M5 ant the Sony FS5 with 28mm Lens, and im absolutely disappointed

    -Alta flies good, smooth and normally
    -M5 is super well balanced and perfect hand tuned
    -M5 is in Airborne Mode
    -I tried also to give more ore less stiffness, also up to the maximum

    I tried now a couple of weeks to find a solution to have stable footage out of the M5, also together with a Freefly Dealer next to me but i cant find the right way/settings. Im asking me now is there even more to adjust ore is this the full performance from the Movi and i have to accept this!?

    Here is an example from strait flights forward and Backward with best weather conditions:

     
  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    I believe most of your issues that I see in that picture are on the Tilt axis. I also seem a little bit of vibration on the tilt axis on a couple occasions. You mentioned that the M5 is perfect hand tuned. Hand tuned and tuned for flying are not the same thing. If it was tuned for the stand then you need to set it up for air mode. If you haven't tuned the M5 while its on the Alta suspended from the isolation system you need to do that. Another question I have is how are you mounting the Sony FS5 to the M5? Did you remove the handle/viewfinder assembly? Are you using the top hot shoe support or does that camera not support it? Here's what I recommend to you if you haven't already.

    1. Put the batteries on the Alta like you normally fly, attache the M5 to the bottom.
    2. Support 2 booms on the alta by suspending them on chairs to get the Alta off the ground and simulate flying mode. The M5 has to be suspended like its in mid air or the tuning will be no good.
    3. Make sure the M5 is set to Flying mode - Don't use ground mode for tuning.
    4. Set all settings back to factory.
    5. Set auto tune to 70%.
    6. Perform an auto tune, write down the stiffness settings for pan, tilt, and roll.
    7. Slowly increase the stiffness settings for each motor until you start seeing the motor vibrating. Then back off the stiffness setting about 15-18 from that point. Note where your stiffness setting is compared to autotune. Your stiffness settings should still be close to the auto tune numbers but from my experience my actual settings are still higher.

    Also as far as the tilt balance goes. It's my experience from actually seeing other peoples gimbals that some people "preceive" their tilt access is perfectly balanced when in fact its actually not. To be perfectly balanced the camera should be able to go anywhere on the tilt access and stop on a dime and not move at all. It should go up and down very freely and not have to use any effort to stop the camera from moving. What some people don't realize is to get the tilt axis "perfect" you need to adjust the camera's vertical CG by moving the camera up and down the tilt bars until the camera comes perfectly in. It can actually take a bit of time to get it perfect because you wont know if the cameras Vertical tilt position is correct until you then balance the camera back and forth to where it needs to be. The CG adjustment and front to back to forth adjust both go hand in hand. So you need to tweak the vertical CG first and then set the back and forth balance to see how close or how far away it really is.

    Perform all mechanical adjustments first before tweaking the tuning settings like I describe above.

    Also if you are not using the top hot shoe/cold shoe of the cage support that can cause some stability issues. I have seen that on my home made gimbals that did not have the top support.
     
  3. Ricardo Perret

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    Hy Dave, Thank you verry much for your brilliant instruction. I will try this right now.

    Alsoe i have tested to balance and tune the Movi normally (in the Movi Stand). than i took a mini Segway and hold the movi in my hands
    and drove around, here I`ve seen the same issue... (but i have to say, the movi was in Airborne mode)

    Mounting: Bottom and Top
    [​IMG]

    Balancing:


    example:


    I let you know, when i have results with your instruction.

    Thank you

    Ricardo
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Ricardo

    Sure any time. Great video's. From what I see I don't think the tilt is balanced enough. At 29-30 seconds in I see you move the camera to the straight forward angle and the camera wants to spring back up. In my opinion the vertical CG of the camera needs to be tweaked a little bit. Like I mentioned before you need to adjust the height of the vertical tilt bars slightly and then rebalance the back to front balance of the camera and recheck. You will be very surprised how much a 1/16 to an 1/8 of an inch movement up or down will make to the overall tilt balance. Remember the tilt balance should be so good that when you deflect the movement of the camera tilt it should just stay there without any assistance at all. When you tilt the camera up and down by hand you will actually "feel" a difference, it will be like ultra smooth and responsive and you should require absolutely no effort by hand to maintain a certain tilt position. I hope this is clear, I can also try to make a video in the next day or so to show you in case you can't dial it in.

    Once you get that dialed in I will show you how I am dialing in the pan balance.
     
  5. Ricardo Perret

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    Dave, Thank you for your Reply...

    I adjusted already the gimbal like you written...
    Here is a testflight again:



    i think, this is the badest result ever... :(
     
  6. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Ricardo please post your various stiffness settings. Also Pan/tile smoothing and window values.
     
  7. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for uploading. IMO your mechanical tilt is not right and it appears that your smoothness settings could be adjusted as well. I will see if I can film something really quick for you to show you the mechanical setup. Another good tuning tip is to suspend the Alta with the M5 like you had it before and then monitor the tilt motor's performance. See if the motor is smooth and see if the motor power is low under normal stabilization. If tilt motor power is higher than 6 just sitting there its taking too much power to stabilize which is an indication that the balance is off.
     
  8. Ricardo Perret

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    Hy Gary, thank you for your Help, here my actual settings...

    Pan Stiffness 130
    Roll Stiffness 47
    Tilt Stiffness 25
    Pan Smooting 10
    Tilt Smoting 10
    Pan Window 10
    Tilt Window 5
    Tilt Mode: Smooth Lock
    Airborne Mode

    Best Regards
     
  9. Ricardo Perret

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    Dave:

    When i hold the movi in my hands and shake it around the Chart Board says:

    Motor Tilt between -3% and +6%
    Motor Roll between -4% and +5%
    Motor Pan between -2% and +6%

    When i don't move the Gimbal:

    Motor Tilt between -1% and +1%
    Motor Roll between -1% and +1%
    Motor Pan between -1% and +1%
     
  10. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Ricardo what are the settings in the Expert Menu for Gyro and Output Filter? Usually they are a default of 5 if I remember correctly. If they are at that level try lowering them to 3 and retune.
     
  11. Ricardo Perret

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    Yes, default is 5.... i tried already all steps between 2 and 6... including retuning... no different... i have the option to test tomorrow another M5 Gimbal... look forward for this results...
     
  12. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Ricardo

    I made a small video for you just to double check that your tilt is mechanically balanced as it should be. Here's an example. See how the tilt freely goes up and down but stops where it should. Also one other thing to check is make sure everything is tight and nothing is loose. I know that I have found a couple of my locking mechanisms to work itself loose which caused the tilt balance to shift. Just go through all the metric screws and make sure they are snug tight.


    Password: M5
     
  13. Ricardo Perret

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    Hy Dave, thank you for your great Video...i double Checked yesterday all Screws and mounting parts... everything should be fix and tight. My Tilt Balance looks like yours... tomorrow i have the option to test another M5 maybe is something wrong whit my movi...
     
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  14. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Ricardo your tilt stiffness value looks relatively low. By dropping the Gyro and Output to 3 you should be able to go to higher stiffness settings. You have to re-tune if you change the Gyro and Output values otherwise just changing them doesn't do anything.
     
  15. Ricardo Perret

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    Hello Gary
    Thank you for your help...

    Here a other Test with your input...i think better but nod good enough to work with it...



    But could it be when im on a film set and have to change my lens that i need 2 ore more hours to calibrate my gimbal again!?

    Here is a test with a $1200 China Gimbal, not perfect balanced, no stiffness tuning etc. just to go shure thats not a issue from the camera ore the objective... im amazed how good this gimbal is working without perfect balance and this for a quarter of the price!

     
  16. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Ricardo you really can't compare the 2 gimbals because while the tilt is better on that China gimbal it is not holding pan as well. You also are comparing ground mode to aerial mode and going back and forth between the two. Here's my 2 cents for what its worth.
    1. Keep the M5 on the Alta. Keep making simple adjustments one at a time and then refly to test. If the camera is not working well in ground mode, then test and tune in ground mode until you have that in, then move on to flying it. Do one or the other but not mix and match while you are trying to resolve the issues.
    2. From the video I saw of your tilt balance it was not holding the tilt axis properly (see 29-30 seconds into that video) IMO its balanced good enough. Tilt balance is crucial for longer camera setups that are longer than they are wide. I would like to see a more detailed video of your camera moving throughout the tilt access (like my video)
    3. IMO your tilt stiffness number for that camera combination is too low even if you keep your Gyro at 5. Heck I use 28 on a simple 5D, light 24mm prime lens combo. I would imagine that setup should use at least something in the upper 30's. You have not mentioned how you are tuning it. Are you doing auto tune only? Are you suspending the copter and increasing your tilt stiffness until it vibrates? If you are manually tuning it I would love to know what stiffness number it takes before your tilt motor starts vibrating.
    4. What firmware are you on?

    I have a lot of experience using home made gimbals with Alexmos boards and then switched over to the M5's. I have a very tight budge and need to squeeze out every penny. I tried getting by with the cheaper gimbals. You truly get what you pay for. Inexpensive gimbals are inconsistent and simply do not have the easy of balancing the camera. Plus the M5 has a true support cage that makes the entire camera rigid. Before I tried an M5, I had worked with Alexmos gimbals for 2 years. I thought that there was no way the Movi was better. At that point the school I work for bought 2 M5's for their video department and within 5 minutes of playing with it I realized the significant difference. I immediately sold my Alexmos gimbals for 2 M5's. I flew both all year under hundreds of flights and many different camera-lens combo's with zero issues. I can tell you after flying all year I have had no issues on any job with the M5 working as it should which is a way different case when using Alexmos. The difference is night and day. Either the gimbal is not setup correctly or there is an issue with your M5 that needs to be addressed.
     
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  17. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Ricardo what is the weight of the camera/lens/battery/attachments that is sitting on the gimbal?
     
  18. Ricardo Perret

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    Dear Dave
    Thanks a lot for Your Help and your Inputs....just for your understanding, i work
    also since 4-5 Years active with handheld gimbals and i understand all the basics but i had never such an occurrence like with this M5... also i started successful wit the alex-mos stuff :)

    As soon as possible i will share another Video from my Calibration. I run the newest firmware.
    Today i visit our Local Freefly Dealer, he checked also my calibration settings, Tuning and Gimbal balance, he
    was happy with all my gimbal placements.

    To go super-safe, we demounted the camera, mounted again new including Balancing. Then we mounted the Gimbal to the Copter (Copter was with help of two chairs in the air incl. batteries) reseted all the settings an Started from Begin with manual tuning in Airborne Mode. (when we have reach the vibrating points of each axis we gone back 15-18 clicks.) After a test flight, it was again not really better.

    Also we checked all connectors between Motors and main unit. After a couple of small tuning changes the result was still not better. Our last test was to Fly in Handheld Mode for a wonder this was the Best footage what i ever shot but still not perfect...

    Now there is one test left to set the Gyro filter again Lower from 5 to 3 like in other tests wit Airborne Mode.
     
  19. Ricardo Perret

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    Hy Garry,

    >Camera 980 grams incl. Battery and SD Card
    >Objective 350 grams
    >Connex HD +/- 60 grams

    Total weight of the Gimbal, ready to fly is: 3.757 Kilogramm

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Ricardo have you contact support@freeflysystems.com? At this point I am stumped on what might be happening. Sounds like your dealer may also be scratching their head.

    I don't know the camera but do you have any lens stabilization turned off?
     

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