Go Big Program | New Pricing

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Tabb Firchau, Sep 15, 2014.

  1. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    Austin. Can you be a little more specific about how this "arrives at the same result as the old upgrade path"
    Do you believe you can sell an out of date M10 in a suddenly flooded market for $6k when you can get a new M5 for $4k with more advanced tech?
    What about the tax liability on that sale, whatever $ figure turns out to be.
    What about the loss of five years of depreciation on the original $15k?
     
  2. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    As stated in the other thread, I'm not a tax professional, and I would suggest we both defer to one from here on out.

    And yes, I think you can sell an M10 for something *close to* $6k. Yes I am aware of what a flooded market is. No, I do not think it's as bad as you are implying.

    Also, don't mistake the M5's *improvements* for it being a *better gimbal.* The future owner of your M10 certainly doesn't.

    The M5 is great, but size and payload go a long way in this equation. They will say "oh, but for $2k more I can get a used M10 and have more flexibility."
     
  3. Hikari Homma

    Hikari Homma Member

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    It's easy to say but hard to do.
    I can understand if price gonna be dropped 2k or 3K.
    But No 50%.
    I really don't understand sorry.

    I still remember that when I ask to you guys before buying M10 in last year.
    You guys said that "The price 15K for M10 is including future upgrade".
    But still we don't have EVEN iOS? You guys said that it will be released soon but where is it? You really cares product deeply?

    15K was not including any upgrade but we have to pay 6K more? It's totally unfair at least in my opinion and if I think what I heard before buying M10.

    I'm sorry if I said too much. But you Freefly people have responsibility to your action and what you said.
     
  4. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    And yes, I think you can sell an M10 for something *close to* $6k. Yes I am aware of what a flooded market is. No, I do not think it's as bad as you are implying.

    What price are you asking today?
     
  5. Brett Harrison

    Brett Harrison Active Member

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    If you sell your M10 for 3K (the price of a Ronin incidentally) you'll get the same result as the original offer: one gimbal for a 3K outlay.

    Think about the purchase as an investment. Consider the developments to the system going forward, particularly the software control - not to mention the superior product it is today.
     
  6. Eric Ulbrich

    Eric Ulbrich Member

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    5 movi's currently on ebay, zero bids
    ive seen another 3-4 on cml (including mine....no offers)
    seen only one or two on reduser in the past few days...none have sold yet.
    two buddies of mine just sold both their m10's complete with tablets, batteries, ninja star plates, controller, ect for a whopping 3K a piece. They couldn't get any other offers....

    Starting to see a common thread here?

    I gotta say, they only place I can put blame here is on the company. I would think that after seeing all this unfold in the past week that freefly would come out and make a change for their customers...but instead we get the PR machine telling us that we are "cared for" and "important to the company." a sort of half baked apology.

    I got onboard with freefly from the beginning, was one of the first pre-order people. I even gave freefly the benefit of the doubt when they snubbed a 16 week operating position on the Expendables 3 from me (Long story, movi was just coming out, I was offered to operate on the film, production wanted a movi, freefly found out and instead sent one of their people and rigs for free in exchange for promotional material...) would have paid off my rig in the first 2 weeks of owning it. But I guess freefly didn't feel comfortable with someone new working with a rig that was so new. Whatever I moved on. I can get over something like this, but alas, freefly keeps making it hard for me to love movi with this deal and subsequent response.

    You know, Ive been waiting for longer roll arms, ios, and a simple tool-less design since I purchased the thing almost a year ago. I was told that those of us who bought an m10 early were kind of the guinea pigs and freefly would be sure to take care of those who helped moved their product forward (i was rewarded with a tool-less pan bar, but only after I broke my first two and made a stink about how soft the screws were.) Ive Been told over and over how those things were "just around the corner" and how much our early adopter support really matters to freefly. Well that must be one hell of a long corner...

    I mean I had to wait 6 months to find out a phone number to call you guys at if I have a problem in the field. And half the time I call I get someone who is rude and answers all my questions with "send us an email...." (the other half of the time I get Rich Speiss, who is a total badass and a customer service god.) This Doesn't really scream customer service or caring about the people who have made your company famous. But I guess a long winded post with a pretty sunset and a copter will make the kiddies feel better...100% meaningless in my opinion.

    I guess the ship is going down with the crew and we all stuck on board with no life-rafts.
    But hey! maybe ill get to sell my 15K movi M10, oh wait, my 8K movi M10, I mean my 3K movi m10....
    I wonder if there is a way we can calculate how quickly m10 prices drop each day as we get closer to the sept deadline...
    Bonkers.
    * end of rant
     
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  7. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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  8. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    Warrior move, dude. Get your users to flood the market with your superior product at only $3k and thereby give DJI Ronin a Katana thrust through the lower gut? Business as war?
    If that's the game plan, just let us know, we will back you all the way. :)
     
  9. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Eric I've been traveling. Went to look at eBay and see 3 used M10's being offered. One at $6,000 starting price and one at $7,500. One new other already has 6 offers, all declined, but it is a best offer deal with a price of $8,999. And one 'new' one at the old price. Will be interesting to watch these over the next few days. I added them to my watch list.
     
  10. Andrew Hewson

    Andrew Hewson Member

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    This concept of people having to sell their products in order to upgrade to a product they should have been given in the first place is ridiculous. What a waste of time and such a roundabout process, all the while watering down the high standard that Freefly and each of us worked so hard to achieve. I loved what Freefly was about which is why so many of us helped fund the company with our pre-orders in good faith and it's just sad to see the pioneers get left in many cases for the easiest option. I feel for those who brought multiple gimbals up front, care for a third? Offering a m15 at 50% of the retail price, not cost, may seem like a great deal but the pricing changes have shown they are just numbers. Not everyone runs a huge production company, some will not even have a use for a second gimbal. I don't necessarily but I almost have to buy the GoBig idea to make my first investment still worth while. I hope this wasn't the intention.
    I've had messages from local filmmaker communities laughing at those who went out and brought movi's when they were first released with the new price reduction, it hurts because it makes you feel as if you were stupid instead of a pioneer. I find it interesting how you used "We're growing like crazy" as a reason for not living up to your promises. Is that really an excuse, shouldn't that mean you have the room to do what counts. And if your customers are suffering, isn't that a sign that maybe something is a miss?
    Sure we live in a business world, sure profits, demand and everything change - Some companies stay grounded, loyal to their supporters and others just become like every other company. I'm so thankful for all Freefly has done, it literally has revolutionised movie making and our lives directly as filmmakers. I just feel a bit betrayed as I would have liked to have thought that what we were together all building was something a little more than, "things changing", company growth and practicality. I love the product and will still use it, I just feel a bit stupid. Sometimes doing the right thing costs you.
     
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  11. Steve Speers

    Steve Speers New Member

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    I bought my M10s (two of them) because they said I would be able to upgrade to an M15. Had they not told me this I NEVER would have bought it.

    They told me they didn't see how it was misleading to have told me this.

    Unbelievable how they say they truly care about their customers!! There Go Big program only gives M10s owners the option to buy more of their products. Pretty clear what they care about when that is the only option and they think it is a good idea.

    LAME!

    This email couldn't be more misleading . . . .

    [​IMG]
    Rich S (Freefly Systems)
    May 01 10:03
    Steve,
    I know you were fairly early in the M10 pre-orders. The upgrades will start on June 1st and we will go in the same order the M10 pre-order deposits were received. We will keep you updated.
    Thanks,
    Rich



     
  12. Brett Harrison

    Brett Harrison Active Member

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    My point must have been a good one to get this reaction. There's no mention of a plan; it's just the simple maths of it as an illustration.

     
  13. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    I wasn't calling you dude, Brett.
    My apologies.
     
  14. Lael Camak

    Lael Camak Member

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    I rarely ever post. I am reluctant to now. I sure understand the pain some are feeling... all parties involved. I wish I had better words to share, but feel my best will fall short here:
    This is a bit easier for me than most. I have been buying gear for a long time and I have seen this story many, many times before. The primary difference is that I didn't have the avenues to make my voice heard in days gone past with Sony, Panasonic, etc. Over time, the one lesson I learned is the following: if I don't KNOW I can pay off a purchase in 6 months or less, I either don't buy it or only buy it knowing I am taking a big chance.

    I work for a small business that makes training simulators. In today's market, it is incredibly difficult to stay ahead of the competitors. Upgrades are constant and never easy to implement. So I understand the logic in going the direction FreeFly has gone here. From experience, I can assure you that FreeFly is taking a big hit and making sacrifices to offer their flagship at 50% off. What would an upgrade have cost me? Probably when all is said and done, closer to $3500 for something still different from the M15. And I might have been out of pocket for a month or more.

    For all the concerns here, has anyone bought a camera lately? Prices halve all the time. New technology comes out every day that kills a rental market overnight. It is hard for everyone these days - owner operators and small manufacturers. As a manufacturer, how do you fight the half dozen foreign companies that rip off your product in a month? Mostly these rip offs are paying workers far less than they are worth with no regard to human rights. Really, my attitude on this changed when I volunteered in some of these countries. We got it good here.
    Sorry for that rant but I'm humbly requesting to keep this in perspective.

    Back to the product and company:
    I like what they have done with the M15. I didn't even contemplate selling my M10 as I am flying Epics and Cine lenses with no problems whatsoever ( well, other than my arms). I can't imagine anyone saying the M10 is obsolete. I'm thrilled to have a backup for probably $2500 over what an upgrade would have cost me.
    I was at the last two NABs and I think I met every single person on the floor working for FreeFly. I'm sure they were sick of me. I work with a lot of companies. One thing I will say is that Tabb is gifted in selecting his staff. These guys were worth my taking a chance. Again I know a lot of buyers are feeling the pain. I wish I had more comforting words. All in all this is a good deal and this is far more than you will ever get from a big company manufacturer.
    Now back to shooting.
    All the best!
    lael
     
  15. Hikari Homma

    Hikari Homma Member

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    I'm very interested in sony FS7 and maybe I will buy it.
    M10 is enough for FS7 and with which lenses? Or M15 is needed?
    I can't make discussion I have to upgrade to M10 or not.
    No one knows about it at this moment.

    If you are really caring about your customer, then you have to think about these situation.
    And many new camera will be announced soon especially new Cinema EOS. I'm living in japan an heard so from many people.
    It gonna fit with M10 or M15? Of course no one knows it.

    Freefly have to think about these situation if they wants to work in film scene.
    We have to buy M15 by $12K after 30 sep? Ok then I go to other gimbal if my M10 was not enough for FS7 and new cinema EOS.
    I guess many people will do same.

    I can pay 12K but will not buy M15 with that price. It's clear that M15 price gonna drop in next year.
    Same thing like a M10 gonna be happened.

    Freefly have to rethink and find out some solution I think.
    Everyone here in forum has their opinion. But almost everyone say 30 step is to suddenly.
    So I think there is enough reason to make it longer. And in my opinion, it must be till release of new cinema EOS.

    But even freefly did it so, 6K is too expencive.
    I think freefly make gobig program longer. Then people will happy with it and they forget about the price.
    I'm doubting this is Freefly tactics. Or maybe I'm thinking too much.

    I still demand free upgrade.
    Because I heard $15k for M10 INCLUDING future upgrade. I didn't pay if I didn't hear about it.
    Where is free upgrade? Yes firmware was upgraded but it costs $7.5K?
     
  16. bevan goldswain

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    ..."or go home"
    That is what is missing from the end of the "go big" tagline.

    That's what it feels like freefly is saying to early adopters.
     
  17. JASPER GLAVANICS

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    Well after two weeks of emailing back and forth with Freefly trying to reason with them, making my point that smaller operations such as myself don't have the need for two gimbals and have to not only come to terms with the M10 depreciating in value over half (for me) and that we have to invest another 3K into something that was promised as an upgrade ... I have finally caved in and ordered the M15.
    I felt that I had no other choice, as I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. The D.O.P's and directors are wanting longer lenses and matte boxes etc ... but I can't give this to them with the M10. So I am hoping to go on board with a large rental company and co-lease my M10.
    To add insult to injury, after finally saying yes lets go ahead with the order. I now am told I have to wait 3 weeks. History repeating itself if you ask me.

    So people of the forum ... I just wanted to say that Freefly is not going to give in to all of our demands and suggestions. We are stuck with this option for now. However Im sure if you wait 6 or so months ... something like this will happen again.

    Such a shame this upgrade had to play out this way. Such a shame. Because as soon as a competing company comes up with a product that is on par with the build of the M15 .. I unfortunately will go with them. Which I am sure most of the early adopters will do also.
     
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  18. Hikari Homma

    Hikari Homma Member

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    Soon M20 will be released I think. And it must be.

    M15 is not good enough for FS7 if I see sizing info of FS7. And maybe also for new cinema eos. I don't think canon will keep that stupid shape for next cinema eos. Everyone complain it and canon will react.

    Yes M15 can carry F55 but you need really tricky technique for mount F55 on M15. I saw it in my eyes.
    I really don't understand M15 is what for? That's the point why I don't want to upgrade but not only money.

    M15 upgrade was too late. Now new camera like a FS7 will be released soon. And M15 wasn't make for it.
    And also you have to think about new cinema eos. Can you say to your client "oh sorry, Newest MoVI can't carry these new generation camera sorry"? Then how they feel? They will think that you and freefly is super stupid and just go to someone who has correct gimbal for those camera.

    I don't understand why I have to upgrade to M15 at this moment. It's really gambling. Perhaps new cinema eos will fit to M15 but perhaps not.
    I don't want pay 6K for gambling.
    And We all early adopter already paid $15k for gambling. That's why early adopter has a right to demand more better treatment.

    I just want to have correct gear without gambling.

    I think M20 or new gimbal will released after new generation camera was released such as FS7. I need upgrade for it but not NOW!

    Freefly can't make gambler your customer...
     
  19. Sam Windell

    Sam Windell Member

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    Selling my M10 this week to afford M15 if anyone knows anyone interested in buying one. 5,500 or best offer by the weekend gets it.
     
  20. Joshua Binder

    Joshua Binder New Member

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    I wish Tabb and FF all the success in the world as it is in my interest they try to continue protecting my investment with continued functionality and better user experience. Since I don't buy stuff like this for it's resale value I've chosen not to bitch about the price drops. Of all the experts that Tabb mentions I can only assume some smart enough analytical minds looked at the whole picture and realized it was a necessary move.

    What I really hope for all our sakes is that all of the great new and original product development genius that is working tirelessly I'm sure to bring us all the great and necessary improvements to the Movi product line has a 1:1 match with business development genius. Clearly there's no shortage of people with the know how to deal with creating, buying and selling product but doing similar things with your customers is a different beast.

    For one since I'm keeping my M10 I'm Hoping that Freefly isn't throwing away improvements. If it's gonna be something I keep around because I'm being forced into owning two I would hope that any potential upgrade from the M15 such as the cage would be made available for the M10 so it doesn't collect dust as the inferior beta product we were all forced into keeping around.

    With that being said... There are a many improvements I'm still waiting for the supposed top player in the industry to produce:

    -Tool-less handgrips
    -m5 and 15 style battery door upgrade
    -Power options at the base and the handlebar section
    ***this is especially interesting to me since clearly you felt the need to add an extra battery compartment for accessories but we are still looming cables around potentially disrupting the balance
    -Ability to trunk cables through the rods to get them out of the way. This seems like a no brainer I'm a little surprised we still have exposed wires held in with zip ties

    For those of us with the controller $3600 later... Start and stop cable kit anyone? This is so basic we really have to macgyver this together after paying that kind of money for a product thst isn't yet completely functional

    Please guys, put a product guy at a desk who's sole job is to continue to improve upon the M10 offer modestly priced upgrades if not free where possible for all of your loyal customers who basically have to live with the unfinished product next to the more refined version since we can no longer upgrade and just keep 1

    And for god sakes... Can we do something about the stand please?

    Look I'm a big fan of the revolution happening in maker manufacturing that has in all reality been exemplified by Freeflys great success.

    I'm all for investing early for a long and fruitful relationship with a startup that I feel has amazing potential to create great products

    But I'm definitely wary when I see one of NYCs bigger rental house buy a dozen Ronins, and this isn't a company that decided to save money by getting cp2s instead of Master Primes... They have both.

    If people/customers lose faith in this company it leaves things wide open for competition (especially well funded and resourced completion) to aggressively poach your customer base, bleeding R&D funding, leaving the former class heavyweight last in the class. This is how great startups die unfortunately. To protect everyone's investment for the long term I hope this gets turned around. Because the truth of the matter is that a competitor who no doubt has an inferior product, inferior technology but great design, excellent user experience, good pricing and excellent marketing (not to mentioned well resourced too) can only rely on a starve and devour strategy. Meaning it's cheaper to take the customers, deprive the market leader of R&D, and either make a swift kill or even acquisition. Leaving the product line worthless.

    This may be a lot of conjecture but all I can say is a very big competitor seems to be coming out guns blazing for Freeflys customers and wants to do anything to prove themselves... And it's only the beginning. So I hope that DJI remain a cheap Chinese imitator for a long long time but clearly they have smart people and good resources over there. So I only hope Freefly isn't only relying on the blind confidence of having superior technology.

    This is a baby new company in an industry where new players are getting in everyday... Your customers are everything, the minute that gets forgotten usually becomes the beginning of the end. So myself, I'm gonna have some blind confidence that "experts" mean bizdev folks who can help freefly not just repair the damage but take their customer relationships to new heights.

    I for one will be watching very closely. When the disruptor and early entrant to a new market is usually in their 3rd or 4th iteration is when the competition tends to ramp up exponentially.

    It wasn't that long ago when Microsoft was so big the government tried to break it up and apple was on its knees with the creditors suggesting it be closed down and the IP chopped up and sold off.
     

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