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Drone crash into crowd at Bull Run in VA

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Scott Strimple, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Morgan the simple version. The FAA controls all airspace in the US. Any flying machine they consider to be something that they alone have regulatory powers to approve. Starting several years ago they published a set of rules on how someone could get a Certificate of Operating Authority (COA). Basically in order to fly a UAV in US airspace you could only get a COA if you were a government or educational agency. The COA process has been updated, about a month ago, making it a bit easier. Congress gave the FAA until 2015 to promulgate regulations for the use of UAV's in the national airspace. Note that this includes everything from our size of craft to remotely piloted jet aircraft, though the mid size drones are more the focus. These can be 'flown' autonomously at the same altitudes commonly used by regular airplanes.

    To top off the discussion the UAV needs to have an airworthiness certificate. The COA process issues a 'special airworthiness' certificate similar to what you would get if you built a homebuilt airplane. But the regulations will not let you use an aircraft with an SA for any type of commercial use. Thus the 'no commercial use' caveat. Any time you use the AC and get any form of compensation it would likely be considered a commercial operation.

    The FAA has commented publicly that they aren't chasing folks who are flying UAV's commercially. But they will and and are required to investigate any complaint that they receive which has happened to some members on the forum. As far as I know this incident is the first one of it's kind in the US. With this type of publicity you can expect that they will do a complete investigation. They have both civil and criminal penalties available to them. When there has been civil penalties it has been $10,000 as in the Team Blacksheep and guys flying a single rotor around Alcatraz. But no one was injured in those deals.

    Hope this helps.
     
  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    They were taken on the tower of the track. YOu can stand on it and have a nice elevated lift. I've been there several times. I used to race the Mustang drag race circuit.
     
  3. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    I think it might be important to consider the FAA's definitions.

    For example, and there may be other definitions out there on the net, if you are flying "as a hobby or for recreational use" then you are flying a Model Airplane. If you are flying for some other reason, then you are not. The other two classifications are "Civil Aircraft" (which is where you need a special airworthiness certificate as Gary says), or "Public Aircraft" (Government agency/military).

    See http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/reg/media/frnotice_uas.pdf for more details.

    Therefore one must consider what the operators of the Bull Run copter were doing. If they were flying for hobby/recreational use, then they should not have been near a crowd. If there were flying it as a civil aircraft.....well, you can figure it out...

    Sorry, Steve Morgan, but this *is* the memo. :) Or one of them.

    Andy.
     
  4. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Until the FAA puts guidelines in place, the insurance is pretty much useless. At least that's my opinion.
     
  5. Jeff Sheffield

    Jeff Sheffield New Member

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    I sure hope you're kidding, Morgan, the rules are pretty clear on this one.
     
  6. Jeff Sheffield

    Jeff Sheffield New Member

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    That's lens compression going on there, from a long telephotos lens. It's not that close, otherwise it would be in focus.
     
  7. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

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    Possible, but I'm not so sure I agree. I believe it's more motion blur...but either way, kind of nuts.
     
  8. Jeff Sheffield

    Jeff Sheffield New Member

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    Dave, you're right regarding the insurance, insurance companies won't cover you because it's considered an aircraft. Even my aerial balloon system has to have special "aircraft" insurance. My normal business insurance wouldn't cover it. The only group we found that would write a policy was Hill & Usher to the tune of $1400/yr. The balloon system is also regulated by the FAA (Part 101) even though it's tethered to the ground. The only real hazard is if it got away and an airplane ran into it. It's not likely to fall out of the sky, even if someone shoots holes through it. It would just leak slowly and start descending, but we still have to have insurance and have to follow the regulations.The multi-rotors are a much bigger threat for damage and liability, unless flown responsibly. It's just a matter of time before we start seeing civil lawsuits, in my opinion. Be very careful when insuring yourself. Also, the liability insurance that we bought does not cover loss of equipment either. Liability only.
     
  9. Richard MacDonald

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    Not only has the facebook screen shot been removed from their Facebook page, the whole section on their web site: www.digitalthunderdome.com regarding his multi-rotor helicopter has been removed. Cover up??
     
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  10. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    Interestingly Paul Conto is no longer defending Digital Thunderdome. As I said in an earlier post...just another non-rc media group purchasing rc equipment, going out making fools of themselves and becoming national baffoons. I hope Digital Thunderdome stick to their statement about not leasing their equipment or flying in the future...one less amateur out their ruining it for the pros who care about public safety. Damn idiots
     
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  11. Richard MacDonald

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    Apparantly the guy flying the GoPro is this guy:


    He's being investigated too. A buddy of mine who works for Dinwiddie County said he was flying so low that he was inches from touching waving hands on the crowd shots then would power up to 100' feet and do it all over again.
     
  12. James Adkins

    James Adkins Member

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    Now Digital Thunderdome are claiming that they leased the copter to the pilot and are refusing to provide his name due to a confidentiality agreement. The Feds will not be amused.

    Sorry forbeing redundant...missed this in the earlier post.
     
  13. Bill Clary

    Bill Clary New Member

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    A couple months ago i flew out to Pamplona, Spain and filmed some aerial of the Running of the Bulls. I contacted the USA bull run guys and from the sounds of it was also one of the companies that were being considered but ultimately did not get the job.
    If you want to check out some aerial from the running of the bulls in Spain check out my latest demo, the clips are in the beginning.

    Ive been shooting aerial pretty much ever since i got out of the army in 2000 and have been waiting for this industry to explode, its just unfortunate that this accident and the wedding video are going to be a lot of peoples first impressions. I was watching the news 2days ago and a local station was playing the wedding video and today they are playing the bull run crash video.. This sucks!!! very bad P.R.

     
  14. Paul conto

    Paul conto Member

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    I have stopped making comments as new information has come to so I don't put out bad/speculative information. I also don't want to keep adding fuel to this fire which is now spreading very rapidly, news agencies as far Detroit, St Louis, and Jacksonville all have reports on their sites. I completly understand the wanting to have someone punished so the whole industry doesn't but even if one person does the effects will be felt from everyone to the guys making a livelihood out of it to the grassroots guys like myself trying to get into the game. As was put out to me this forums is google searchable, so the more information we put out the more information people could use against the industry and put tighter restrictions on everyone. That being said I won't be changing any of my posts as I don't want to be called out on being part of a "cover up" but just know we all should be careful what we put up to not add any more fuel to this massive fire.
     
  15. James Adkins

    James Adkins Member

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    There are a lot of true professionals that are angry that someone was negligent enough to allow this to happen, even though admittedly it was enevitable. I for one think that the community at large should make it clear that we do not condone flying over large crowds of general public.
     
  16. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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  17. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    I personally believe it's our duty as responsible RC aerial enthusiast to publicly (in the forums) scorn and disown the reckless guys for this sort of activity, let the public know that the vast majority of us here are responsible fliers who disapprove of careless pilots that haphazardly endanger the public. Otherwise they'll think we're all cowboys.
     
  18. Patrick St-Arnaud

    Patrick St-Arnaud New Member

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    Yes this is bad and I understand the anger and the trying to figure out who did what and the speculations about law suits and all that stuff. But this is a futile discussion.

    My primary interest as a professional pilot flying both full size helicopters and remotely operated platforms is always "the cause" because this is what will advance us and help avoid reoccurrences.

    Most accidents involve a human factor related to negligence or misjudgement. Flying over a crowd is a misjudgement but it didn't cause that aircraft to come down.

    So I ask you, what caused this crash? Did he just run out of juice or was there a system malfunction? Was there a pilot error or was the aircraft poorly maintained?

    This is what we have to talk about here.
     
  19. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    Patrick, the discussion here is not so much the cause but his choice to fly directly overhead of spectators. It's sort of an unwritten rule by the pros to NOT fly directly over crowds, gatherings or event attendees who are not hired extras for a production. If he had not been flying directly over spectators and had crashed on the field or behind the spectator stands there would be no discussion or bad press.

    btw, a drained battery is what brought it down...another sign of an inexperienced and careless operator. We understand that these copters are not always as reliable as we want therefore we have to insure that when a failure happens we're not going to harm the pubic. It's not very difficult to avoid the unsuspecting public in case of a failure...DON'T FLY DIRECTLY OVER THEM.
     
  20. Patrick St-Arnaud

    Patrick St-Arnaud New Member

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    Ok so we've had the discussion about not flying directly overhead of spectators and everyone agrees on that.

    Now back to the cause. It seems strange that the aircraft, from a hover, loses altitude at first as if it did run out of power, but then it starts to flip on the side and it looks like it is still accelerating sideways, meaning some motors are still powered. When the batteries quit, all motors stop and all props stop generating lift at once and since we have no pitch control on the multi-rotors, the aircraft should fall straight down from its hover position. This doesn't appear to be the case here.

    Was there control input from a panicked pilot or was Mr. Wookong involved?
     

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