Crash video: X8 with KDE 4014 into the water!

Discussion in 'Cinestar 8' started by Bryan Harvey, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. Jose Luis Ocejo

    Jose Luis Ocejo Active Member

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    On a Single rotor the shape helps a lot but on a symmetrical multirotor for me is tricky specially in bright daylight LED may not be suficient with just seconds or less to notice and react, a bright shape on the tail of a MR has to help the brain to react quickly in a uncontrolled Yaw I actually have try it before on and off I think Im going to use it all the time
     
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  2. Tristan Twisselman

    Tristan Twisselman Active Member

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    Definitely agree, LED are much harder to see in broad daylight
     
  3. Tristan Twisselman

    Tristan Twisselman Active Member

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    Any new info on the motors? What KDE thought when they saw it? etc
     
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  4. Tim Gould

    Tim Gould New Member

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    Just an update on the status of the Gryphon. Patrick at KDE provided us with quick support to help us get airborne again. We ended up replacing three of the KDE 4014 motors because of damage. Bryan opted to make the change over from Castle Creation ESCs to the new KDE 55A ESCs and we have switched from Xoar 17" to T-Motor 18" propellers. The new package is performing well and I would say the larger props have gained us some thrust and stability at higher loads. Everything is running a bit hotter now with the larger propellers. An eight minute hovering flight put the ESCs at 155F and the motors at 145F. This is what I saw on my bench test as well and the temps had plateaued.

    Patrick, have you had a chance to take a closer look at the shaft from the broken motor? Did you find anything out of the ordinary?
     
  5. Zubeyir Mentese

    Zubeyir Mentese New Member

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    I had a Maytech 60A ESC simply stop working on my X8 (which also uses the KDE 4014s running APC MR 16" props) with a DJI WKM controller. I was able to maintain full control and stability of the copter. I was looking directly at the copter when motor 1 began to slow down, and then it stopped. My first thought was that I was observing the "wagon wheel effect", but about 0.031 seconds later I realized that would not be possible since my eyes aren't cameras. Realizing that motor 1 was out I immediately began a very careful descent, expecting the worst at any moment. The copter descended with total stability. I told my cam op (and myself) several times that the motor was out because, other than that one unmoving prop, there was no noticeable change in flight characteristics. Since were in the middle of a large empty baseball field, since I was intrigued by the situation, and since the ground was looking extra fluffy that day, I decided to take the opportunity to learn something from this rare motor failure event. Once the copter was low enough where a crash would not be catastrophic, I began test flight maneuvers usually reserved for the first flight on a new build. I could yaw in both directions, pitch forward and back, and roll side to side without any issues. Not wanting to push my luck, I landed the copter without issue, powered down, and immediately hand checked motor and ESC temps. Motor 5 was warmer than the rest, but not anywhere near "hot". Motors 2, 3, and 4 were also slightly warmer but cooler than motor 5. The ESCs felt nominal as well. I won't bore anyone with the details of how I determined it was the ESC, but it was pretty simple to figure it out on the spot, get a new ESC on there and test the motors. Overall, if I'd been flying FPV or if the copter was a bit further away and I hadn't seen the motor stop, I probably would have kept flying and not even noticed anything was wrong. Still it was our last flight of the day because I'm not one to shake my fist at the universe when it lets me have a free pass.
     
  6. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Nice description Zubeyir....as you say, the Universe is a cold, harsh, uncaring place, so you take what you can get, when you can get it.

    I promise not to be bored....how did you know it was the ESC? Smoke? Incandescent printed circuit board?

    Andy.
     
  7. Zubeyir Mentese

    Zubeyir Mentese New Member

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    Basically, after powering back up to see if the problem had magically (and terrifyingly) fixed itself, I secured the copter to the ground and swapped ESC 1 with ESC 5. I powered up and armed the motors. Motor 1 spun up just fine and now motor 5 was still. Then I replaced ESC 1 and haven't had a problem in about 30 flights since.
    Next on my to do list is to try to warranty this dead ESC. If I can't get it replaced I may open it up myself and take a look to see if any of the surface mount components are loose or burnt out.

    And I have to dig that video up and post it here.

    I also have the iOSD log files if anyone is interested.
     
  8. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    Well guys, I don't know what to say but I had exactly the same problem as Bryan.

    Today, while fyling, one of the motor's shaft broke and I could hardly land. While the case of the motor flew away, it also damaged the prop on another motor. Basically, I lost almost two motors. The motors are KDE 4014XF 380KV.

    MK FC handled it pretty well, I could land it without incident. Before this flight, I changed two of these KDE 4014XF motors due to other problems, which I will talk about in another topic.

    First time in my RC life, a shaft broke. I always use perfectly balanced props, always take good care of these girls.

    Here are some pictures.

    IMAG0007.jpg IMAG0017.jpg
     
  9. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    Wow thanks for sharing Ozkan. Looks exactly like the same shaft area where Bryan's snapped. Anyone flying KDE multirotor specific motors should cease using them ASAP! I'd say some sort of reimbursement for lost or damaged equipment is called for. This blows because these motors were my only upgrade consideration.
     
  10. Steve Maller

    Steve Maller UAV Grief Counselor

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    Oh, brother. Glad you got her down in one piece. Definitely want to hear back from the KDE folks about this. This is great cause for concern!
     
  11. Patrick Koegler

    Patrick Koegler New Member

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    Hey Ozkan,

    Please e-mail me at Patrick@kdedirect.com, so I can discuss with you the full situation of what occurred. After working with Bryan on his instance, we took this all seriously and instilled changes to our material quality inspection to make sure the motors are extremely durable and we can push things further if needed (at the addition of weight and other design penalties), to make sure we get the best products on the market possible.

    Thanks,
    Patrick Koegler
    Owner, KDE Direct
     
  12. Zubeyir Mentese

    Zubeyir Mentese New Member

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    Bryan, Ozkan, Patrick,

    Having a lot riding on these same 4014 motors (I'm in Mexico for a gig as I write this), I'd really like to learn more about how much use they saw before these failures. I'd also like to know what proactive steps I can take to ensure reliability of my system. Aside from a small amount of shaft play developing during break in (fixed by retightening the lock collars) the 4014s have performed flawlessly for me. That said, I don't want to (neither can I afford to) wait for a failure.
    Replacement parts? New checklist items? The three of you seem to be working closely on this, and I'm anxious and ready to hear what you come up with.
     
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  13. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Bryan, Ozkan: Don't read anything "deep" into my question, but what was your copter's all-up-weight, please? Just curious....

    Thanks
    Andy.
     
  14. Ozkan Erden

    Ozkan Erden Distributor

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    This copter mostly flies with m5+gh4 with 16" props with auw of 20 lbs.

    We also fly bmcc 4k with zeiss lenses and flied with epic dragon once with 18" props.

    The total flight time should be around 20-25 hours. Only 2 hours with bmcc and red epic.

    When this incident happened, i was flying with 5d mk3 with a custom brushless gimbal so it is lighweight for this setup.

    Patrick, i will send a detailed email.

    For now i am grounding my kde setups until i understand what happened.
     
  15. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing Ozkan. One incident can be written up as a fluke, the 2nd one occurring in a short period of time after the first one is definitely concerning. I"m sure Patrick will take the proper steps to make it right. I'm going to ground my copter with these motors until a working solution is in place.
     
  16. Patrick Koegler

    Patrick Koegler New Member

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    Hey Guys,

    Here's the details of what has occurred, and our plan moving forward.

    Currently, there are over 1000+ production KDE4014XF-380s on the market, and the truth is these are the only two shaft failures we have seen. That being said, I take this seriously, and we are looking into going ahead and updating the KDE4014XF-380 design for the future to potentially utilize a 5mm shaft as the "overkill" solution to make sure it cannot happen again. The two shaft failures are anomalies to the overall durability of the motor on the market, but whenever there's something we can improve, we'll do it to make sure we provide you the best products possible. This will take some time, as production is running full-steam ahead on various projects, but we'll get this change incorporated ASAP.

    The reality is, this forum is for commercial/industrial users using the high-end MOVI equipment and as such, the motors are being used much harder and for longer-durations than 99% of the average customer base. In this regard, I believe our next generation motor, the KDE5215XF-435, is going to be an excellent alternative for your specific setups, and is designed specifically for high-end, industrial use and heavy-lifting applications.

    In this regard, for the customers concerned about there current setup using the KDE4014XF-380s, please e-mail me at Patrick@kdedirect.com and we'll work out a plan to make you happy. There are two editions of the new design (330Kv and 435Kv), which you can view here:

    http://www.kdedirect.com/KDE5215XF330.html
    http://www.kdedirect.com/KDE5215XF435.html

    The new design uses a 8mm (!) shaft internally, so shafts are a non-issue, and the bearings are again triple-stacked, oversized NSK editions and sealed, for additional durability and protection in dirty or humid environments. The motors are scheduled to be shipping from our location on 07/30, so we can get you setup very soon.
     
  17. Patrick Koegler

    Patrick Koegler New Member

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    Here's an example video of the torture we've been putting the motors through:

     
  18. Howard Dapp

    Howard Dapp Active Member

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    A beast!
     
  19. Tim Gould

    Tim Gould New Member

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    Ozkan,

    Sorry to hear about your motor failure as well, but thank you for sharing this. It does look like the same failure point.

    As for the weight of Bryan's Gryphon, I think the AUW is around 25 lbs. with his typical setup.

    Tim
     
  20. Patrick Koegler

    Patrick Koegler New Member

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    Hey Everyone,

    The Team has been working diligently to provide a solution for the KDE4014XF-380 users, and we have determined a solution to prevent any chance of shaft failures in the future. All new orders and shipments now incorporate the update, and please contact us at Patrick@kdedirect.com if you have any concerns with your current setup, and we can work with you on this.

    I hope you all see how seriously we take any failures (we are here to listen to our customers and not turn our backs) and we'll always do our best to provide you with the best production available.

    Thanks,
    Patrick Koegler
    Owner, KDE Direct
     

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