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M15 announces for $12k and no upgrade from M10

Discussion in 'MōVI M15' started by Aaranyan Ramanujam, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. Charles Lim

    Charles Lim Member

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    Swimming against the tide?
    Seriously Austin , like you luckily I have some funds to go with movi plan. I have pulled the trigger paid for it and it's shipping tomorrow. Money is funny with people who have it, but seriously for folks who are tight and planned for the $3k upgrade (which I still think is pricey) it's really like punch in the stomach. And they got 2 weeks? to go find the other $3000 now.
    As for me, I don't mind paying premium as long as the company and serious about being the best. My complain on this is, why did it take them so long to fix these little but crititcal problems which bugged the m10? In some ways the M15 is just a M10 fixed. silent clap freefly - about time!
     
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  2. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    While I understand the plight of those unable to pull the trigger before the deadline (the only reason we have the cash is we were saving for something else), I hope that those people are offered a fair amount of grace with the deadline.

    What I disagree with is the assessment that the M10 is inherently flawed. Sure there are improvements that were made (as I would hope any product would have), but it's unrealistic to expect FF to retroactively upgrade those units for free. If there are manufacturing defects, or if a product doesn't perform as promised, that would fall under a warranty issue, and Freefly have a history of handling those well. But a company that offers free upgrades to existing products is the exception, not the rule.
     
  3. Charles Lim

    Charles Lim Member

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    I agreed with all your points austin in the last post. Every single one, but I think you missed my point.
    my gripe is that Movi should have rolled out the 'fixes' faster, my issue is not price .
     
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  4. James Adkins

    James Adkins Member

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    Yes, a full cage retrofit should have been available over 6 months ago. This however doesn't fit the business model of maximizing profits however.
     
  5. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    Understood. My apologies. :)
     
  6. Markus Mueller

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    Hi Charles,

    can you tell me what kind of trigger you pulled and what is shipping tomorrow ? The M15?

    Best markus
     
  7. Jeff Cook

    Jeff Cook Member

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    I just want to add my disappointment with the way this was handled.

    I spent the entire summer "selling" the MoVI to just about anyone who would listen. I have done demos to production companies and trained other DP's to use the system. I have been, (like most of the MoVI Ops that have been here from the start), the front line for Freefly Systems, introducing their product to the production community.

    I also have had to backpedal quite a bit after promising clients the M15 would be available in early summer and then getting nothing but radio silence from Freefly...for months! Not to mention the new Rohin guys coming in behind me taking work because they are cheaper and ready to go.

    I waited patietly, I had my $3,000 upgrade check waiting on my desk since May. I understanding when I would get responses from Freefly to "give us more time", "thanks for your patience".

    Then I wake up on Friday to an email that felt like a robber with a gun saying "I'm going to take your $3,000 PLUS another $3,000 and if you don't give it to me right now your done!" "Oh and by the way you can keep your old rig because it's worth less that half of what it was yesterday".

    There was not enough Vodka in my house to get me through that day....

    The bottom line is for those of us who have been waiting, this announcement was handled badly. The one-two punch of devaluing the M10 and raising the cost of the M15 upgrade hurt a lot of operators. You can argue that it's a wash if you sell your M10 or a bonus to keep it as a backup, but I do agree with those who think the Sept. 30 deadline it too short. It is.

    For me, after recovering form the shock, I went all in for the M15. When it arrives I will have the collectors set of M5, M10 & M15. This was not my plan but here we go. The MoVI change the way I look at shooting and I can't go back now...

    I'm sure the guys at Freefly are doing their best, they are having growing pains and will have missteps here and there, but overall I think they are the best bet moving forward.
     
    JASPER GLAVANICS and Charles Lim like this.
  8. Charles Lim

    Charles Lim Member

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    Paying to get the m15.:mad: lol now I thinking about it , with that $3k I could have gotten the movi controller. But no controller now.
    Jeff Cook's post totally described what I went through.
     
  9. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    Can you share your math with us?
    Mine has some issues.
    Will we get $6k, when all the rental houses are offloading at once? My guess is $3k with a lot of hassle.
    Tax due on the sale of asset in 2014?
    Loss of depreciation on $15k going forward through 2019?
    Possible continuing interest payments on what's left of $15k original investment?
    Austin, I may be wrong, correct me if I am.
     
  10. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    -No one is forcing you to sell your M10 for $3k. In fact, please don't. Hold firm. Be patient.
    -I'm not an accountant, so I can't speak to your taxes
    -Professional equipment depreciates. You should be thinking of the worst-case scenario before you invest in film equipment. Especially new technology.
    -No one forced you to take out a loan… if you did, continuing interest should have been part of your business plan.

    Look, I know those answers probably don't help, but ultimately you are responsible for your own business decisions, and investing $15k in an emerging technology comes down to you and you only. We are all doing the best we can at running our businesses. I know that we have a lot at stake, but this isn't a bad deal for us.
     
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  11. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    Austin, I was addressing your comment : "but it took me all of 5 minutes to figure out that I was getting the same deal as before."
    My math tells a different story. The original $3k refurbishment commitment has very different implications than a $6k purchase.
    Of course equipment depreciates, that's probably why the tax code allows depreciation as a deduction. However I believe that when you sell something you simultaneously give up the depreciation deduction and become liable for tax on the sale.
    Maybe I am wrong on that? Apparently neither of us are experts, but I do question your confident statement that this is the same deal as before.
    Do you really still think that this is true?
    As for "holding fast" history would suggest otherwise.
     
  12. Austin Glass

    Austin Glass Active Member

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    As it was explained to me when I asked about a possible $7k depreciation deduction, I was told that the IRS allows for decuctions based on a depreciation table, meaning the actual price of a new M10 is inconsequential to how much you can deduct.

    Again, I am not a tax professional (nor do I think of myself as remotely knowledgable). Perhaps someone with more experience in that can elaborate.
     
  13. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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    Austin, respectfully. My question is about the loss of the depreciation on the $15k already actually on the books, not any future $7k depreciation schedule. I don't think you can depreciate something you don't own.
    There is also the tax triggered by any sale of the old M10 to consider.
    I agree we need someone with more knowledge to elaborate. I am way out of my depth, but in my ignorance so it looks like real liability is getting shifted onto our balance sheets here. Possibly better to pay $3k for an M15 as published in June, and continue to own and depreciate the M10. The revised offer is not equivalent, though it appears to be on first glance.
     
  14. Charles Lim

    Charles Lim Member

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    For me based in Singapore when I import the new gimbal I am going to get taxed again. If it was just an upgrade, I have to do is pay $200 to the tax man, as it would be technically deemed the same goods in and out.
     
  15. Eric De Fino

    Eric De Fino Member

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    Many keep mentioning "losses" and "depreciation" as the focal point (only point?) of the discussion. If you're making money using a piece of gear, that offsets most, if not all of it.
    I would ask yourselves: Have you made money from your initial $15k investment? Have you been working jobs you normally wouldn't have gotten because of the MoVI? Have you considered how it's improved your business?

    In my case, the M10 paid for itself, at least twice. It also paid for my BarTech, Paralinx, and got my Red Epic rented probably 50% more than it would have. Even when production have an Epic, they'll say "just bring yours so we can keep it built on the MoVI".
    Did a 6-day job last week, and now the new controller is paid.

    The reasoning behind selling your M10 to offset the cost of M15 also doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would you sell a piece of gear at a reduced price that might prevent you to get hired for a job. You're, essentially, giving a potential client a tool so they can go and do it themselves, without you.

    My plan is to use the M15, keep the M10 for second jobs, cheap rentals, spare parts, whatever.

    My two ¢, for whatever it's worth.
     
  16. Martin McGuinness

    Martin McGuinness New Member

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  17. Eric Ulbrich

    Eric Ulbrich Member

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    Couple of answers to this.

    1. depreciation and looses come from the market's demand for that product. Generally speaking, its considered a poor business model when a company's decisions and actions negatively effect the value of the products. Those losses and deprecation should never come from the company, Only in certain situations.

    2. My movi has made a lot of cash, Ive paid for a ton of my accessories and my epic has rented more as well. That should not be part of this discussion at all. What I do with my gear is my own business. Your basically stating, "well if you make money on it, why should it matter that the price has dropped over 50% and the upgrade cost has gone up 50%." Well becuase you still own that piece of equipment. It still has value, just far less now. again company making a negative impact on the market

    3. some of us have to sell gear to get new gear. At least with the upgrade path there wasn't an excess of M10's now floating around for dirt cheap...See again, the company making negative impact on the market.

    its not about cost, or reclaiming investments, ect ect, just look at the gimbal market today and tell me that Movi hasnt lost a ton of value and market clout because of this. Thats whats so silly about it, the damage was self inflicted.
     
  18. Aaranyan Ramanujam

    Aaranyan Ramanujam New Member

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    Well said Eric. I totally feel the same. The sense of exclusivity is going to be lost. I see movi10 floating around used markets at $5500
     
  19. bevan goldswain

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    Was the Movi M10 originally designed to work best with little bits of cardboard wedged between camera base and gimbal to keep it rigid enough to achieve satisfactory stiffness settings?

    No, this was just the suggested fix for the poor design of the baseplate that does not hold a RED EPIC securely enough to not have the camera rotating or wobbling from side to side.

    Despite cardboard wedges being the official advice given to solve the problem I have never seen them making their way into the user manual or marketing material?
     
  20. Ben Platts

    Ben Platts Active Member

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    Hi Bevan. We just use two screws for the Epic on the base plate and its rock solid. No rotating or wobbling possible. Just bought a thread adapter off ebay for the second Epic screw hole to work with the standard Movi screws.
     
    Lael Camak likes this.

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