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Interesting article

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Joe Azzarelli, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. Joe Azzarelli

    Joe Azzarelli Active Member

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  2. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Yes they do if flown over a specific height. FAR 101. More than 500 feet. Covers unmanned balloons, rockets, etc.
     
  3. Joe Azzarelli

    Joe Azzarelli Active Member

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    Gary

    Perhaps I was a bit too pithy. While your answer is accurate, you may have missed the sarcastic juxtaposition intended. It is not likely that the Embry-Riddle photo survey would have been taken above 500 ft, yet the FAA feels they have jurisdiction and demand a permit.

    All Cinestar owners ( in the US ) should be concerned about the FAA overreach into R/C aircraft that are being classified as "drones", blurring the distinction with pending civilian-versions of predator drones. If this article foretells the shape of things to come, we may be needing a permit for every flight. Or I may be paranoid. Or both.

    Joe
     
  4. Gary Haynes

    Gary Haynes Administrator
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    Joe

    Same vain for me. No offense meant or taken. FAR 101 was written apparently to cover 'unmanned aircraft'. That sounds eerily familiar and even gives weight limits for things like kites. Over on another forum another team that actually works as a subcontractor to a govt agency had the same idea. After having two helicopter crashes and resulting injuries. Great idea, fly a quad, stay at or below tree height on the rivers, govt agency sponsorship, et al. And the answer they found was that something that simple would require the proverbial 2300 page document, FAA Rotorcraft license for the pilot, and on and on and on. And they thought it would be simple.

    Seems like an area of don't ask don't tell. Fly and don't annoy anyone or do stupid stuff like the FPV guys flying through clouds over Atlanta and posting videos of their flights. Oh, and if you are going to do stupid stuff don't point the camera at your face prior to or after the flight showing your grinning mug....
     
  5. Morgan Friedland

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    I have a friend that has a friend who's dad is a contractor for the FAA working on the new regulations. I asked him if he knew of any news around the FAA regulations for Drones and particularly SUAS type vehicles. Below is his response. Out of respect for his privacy, I have changed the names in the email. I'm sure most of this is pretty well know and probably nothing new for most of you but thought I would put it out there in case it is useful for inquiring minds.

    <snip>
    Ok, got the call back from my pal Al, who spoke with his father, David Johns. His dad is working as a consultant to a multi-agency government group tasked with regulating UAV's. Essentially, it became clear in a hurry that one agency, such as the FAA was not going to be able to cover all the concerns (airspace, perhaps; some aspects of security, yes; other aspects of security, no; privacy issues, no; etc., etc.,) so a muti-agency group was set up to dig into it and try to create regulation. This in and of itself is perhaps not great news.

    David's understanding is that for the time being, ANY commercial use of unmanned aerial vehicles is illegal (wow!). He acknowledges that this is extreme, but nevertheless believes that to be the case at present.
    Of course, like anyone else, he didn't want to be the final authority on this and suggested that the correct search term for the FAA website (www.faa.gov) would be SUAS (Small Unmanned Aerial Systems). Under this term, It's easy enough to find their cheery prediction that this will be a thriving business. But harder (at least for me) to find any the current quotable regulation that definitively prohibits commercial operations.
    He also acknowledged that the committee is hard at work, but that he doesn't know of any NPRM's (Notices of Proposed Rule Making) yet in issue. NPRM's are often a good place to look, as they are essentially draft rules that let you know what the rule makers are thinking, even if it isn't final yet. In many cases NPRM's go out to the public for comment periods and then are reconsidered.... you get the idea.
    David will check to see if there are NPRM's, but doubts that there yet are.
    David and Al talking together agree that the idea that commercial pilot's licenses will be require for small UAV's and line-of-sight operations seems farfetched. There are many UAV's that are capable of cross country and interstate flight for cargo, mail drones, etc., and they feel that this is likely where the operator will be required to have that kind of certification. As a result they currently feel that pursuing a commercial pilot certificate at this point for the purpose of operating small UAV's is not (yet) a good gamble, unless you can find definitive information. It's getting harder to imagine where the f--k that would come from, though :).
    David had either heard of or found entirely plausible (sorry I don't know which) the story that a guy in California was completely shut down, even for a low altitude small UAV photo business.
    Sorry to be the bearer of obstructy information. Best I can do for now,
    <snip>

    Morgan Friedland
     
  6. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    In the UK, the CAA has issued the so-called CAP 722 for Unmanned Aircraft Systems Operations in UK Airspace.
    You can find it at http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=415

    Obviously, the CAA and the FAA are not going to be tracking exactly, but CAP 722 does give an interesting view of possible things to come.

    My guess is we'll all need BNUC's to fly anything at seven kilos or less. (BNUC = Basic National UAS Certificates -- you have to love recursive acronyms.) It's a certificate of competency -- so everyone better be learning to fly figure eights. It probably would not hurt to keep a log book of your flight hours too.

    You can learn more about your BNUCs at http://www.eurousc.com/luass/pilots.html : looks like the CAA has allowed a private company to set up to do the competency checking.

    Andy.
     
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  7. Katya Nelhams-Wright

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    Hi Andy.
    We are currently setting up our operations in the UK and you need the BNUCS to fly right now commercially 20kgs or less. Eurousc work closely with the CAA and there are 2 parts to the test. A ground school course and exam which then enables you to write a company operations manual. That manual is then sent to the CAA who issue your company a 'permission to fly' for commercial work. Once you have received this you are then able to take the 2nd part of the BNUCS which is the flight part of the test and how you implement your operations manual which is primarily the health & safety side of things and how UAS operates with other airspace users. You are required to keep both pilot and craft log books and all of this also helps with more competitive insurance, more flight hours you have the better rates you get on things like payload and craft insurance during flight. Some people have permission to fly from the CAA on their old heli A&B certificates but it is changing and the CAA are clamping down more on companies without the correct qualifications and letting production companies and broadcasters like BBC know they need to request a B-NUCS and CAA permission to fly certificate when using aerial companies. The idea is also to get the BNUCS recognised within Europe first of all and then worldwide but that is long term I guess. Having completed the ground school part of the course and preparing for the flight test, our experience is that the CAA and then companies like Eurousc are working towards ways of incorporating UAS into the aviation business world rather than stopping it. It puts up the cost initially but I'm all for it as I think it works toward and promotes a safe and healthy industry. I think Australia have a similar thing going on. I hope the FAA decides to do something similar for everyone in the US as it sounds a little confusing right now.
    Katya
     
  8. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Katya:

    Thanks for the additional details. In the USA I think we're a couple of years away from getting to where the UK is. The FAA has not yet issued it's Notice of Proposed Rule Making. Then there's the public comment period, etc., etc.

    I wonder whether there will be reciprocity between the UK and the USA? There is (or at least was) several years ago when I came to the USA with a UK private pilot's license with self-launching motor-glider rating from the UK. I just had to take some ground school (as you may know, we fly on the other side of the sky in the USA from what we do in the UK ;) ) and then I got my FAA pilot's license with self-launching sailplane rating.

    If that's the case, you wonder how the FAA will react to someone coming from the UK clutching their B-NUC (you can't make these names up can you?) and wanting to fly in the USA now? (Of course, I know the answer to that...)

    I seem to remember reading the Australian flight regulations and they were asking pilots to have a license/rating appropriate to their UAS aircraft type. Not quite sure where a Cinestar 8 fits in that scheme of things....is it a helicopter? Aerodynamically the only flight traits it shares with a single rotor helicopter are the two modes of operation: flying or plummeting. :) Closest type would seem to be the Chinook?
     
  9. Katya Nelhams-Wright

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    Hi Andy
    I think eurousc are planning to try to get Europe to recognise the BNUCS in the next couple of years but not sure about the US, probably a long way off. I think you are right in that the BNUCS now would not mean a thing:) Aerobot in Australia offer courses to allow commercial flying with their CAA equivilent and I have heard that their test is a lot more rigorous than ours so probably won't be able to fly in Australia with it either. What have people done in the past if they want to fly in another country? I always thought it would be good to get a sort of sharing of great pilots in different countries and cities to work with if a production in your home country wanted to film abroad. Local knowledge is so essential in terms of different permissions etc and bringing your core team out to fly a job with a pilot you can trust and work well with would be great.
    First things first though we need to get our BNUCS:)
    Kat
     
  10. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Kat:
    You're right. International cooperation would be a Very Good Thing. Will it happen? Hmmm. The phrase "probability asymptotic to zero" comes to mind, sadly.

    But with the UAS community still on the cusp of turning professional, it's not too hard to imagine a forum like this being the means by which you could find pilots in destination countries. Beats having to haul a Cinestar 8 around the globe too. I won't even think of how the TSA will handle future situations.

    The BNUC seems to demand a competency test, the hardest part of which seemed to be flying figure-8s for five minutes, or am I making that up -- I just speed-read CAP722 so I might be imagining that?

    Andy.
     
  11. Katya Nelhams-Wright

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    Hi Andy. It does require a flight test and it does list figure -8s but I think it primarily focuses on your operations manual and how you carry that out and the health and safety aspect of your operation just as much as your flying ability. I'll let you know once I've done the test!:)
    Kat
     
  12. Andy Johnson-Laird

    Andy Johnson-Laird Administrator
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    Hi Kat:

    Better start flying lots of figure 8's with AeroSimRC and/or a Blade mQx. I find them somewhat scary to do with a C8 right now. I'm all for nose out flying where I can (thanks to Casey at QC for the idea) -- that way you get possibly usable footage going out to get a shot and coming home from it.

    By the way, just curious as to what led you to go with the C300 vs, say, a Sony FS700 or it's ilk? I realize I'm hijacking the thread to a different topic -- if you want to go off-forum, feel free to email me at ajohnsonlaird@me.com .

    I'm working with shooters at Oregon Public Broadcasting and I think they're leaning towards the C300 too -- hence my interest in the "hack" you're having to do on the gimbal. I think I can see a C300 in my future.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  13. Jon Fredericks

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    Just to add my two cents to the discussion of FAA Regs vs. Policy.....while the FAA may currently have a "Policy" of no commercial use (R/C aircraft in our case), there are no "Regulations" (FAR's) prohibiting their use. Policies have no legal bearing, and you cannot be an 'offender' of a policy. Refer to the good book: FAR/AIM (it's our bible) and applicable AC's. Also very important to call the tower when you're in controlled airspace and let them know your intentions (I wouldn't try this in Class B airspace though!). They usually tell us to keep it under 100' AGL and call back when we're done. This all develops good working relationships between the FAA/aviation community and our industry, and lets them know that we care about and understand airspace, FAR's and air safety.

    -Jon
     
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  14. Josh Lambeth

    Josh Lambeth Well-Known Member

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    Great information Jon! Thank you!
     
  15. Philip Ellerbroek

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  16. Joe Azzarelli

    Joe Azzarelli Active Member

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    There simply must be parameters established for drone use. The potential for abuse from both the government and private citizens is simply too high. Fortunately this lawmaker seems to be a rational person and may set a precedent for intelligent legislation for other states to follow.

    It is a shame the FAA is so far behind the power curve. Implementation of rational FARs and FAA licensing of commercial operators will HELP the profession significantly.
     

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